Editors Blog

B&C Scorer: There is No Gray Area with King Buck

Johnny King BuckSince D&DH broke the inside story behind the politics surrounding the potential world-record Johnny King Buck, many readers have checked in with their comments on the situation, posting on our forums and blog entries.  Some readers have also claimed to have had contact with insiders connected with this story, including veteran Boone-and-Crockett scorer Ron Boucher of Vermont.

Boucher is a highly respected veteran B&C scorer who incidentally served on the B&C panel that scored Milo Hanson’s buck as the new world record nearly 18 years ago. After viewing the King Buck in person and scoring it himself, he said he is convinced it is a clean 6-by-6 typical that meets all of the B&C requirements, as outlined in the official B&C scorer’s manual. Boucher is adamant that he has nothing to gain by standing up for the King Buck. He said, in fact, he has almost everything to lose. But he decided that fighting the good fight was well worth it. After all, these records were originally implemented to honor the animals — not the hunters who killed them.

At least one poster on the D&DH website claimed to have talked with Boucher since the story broke, claiming that he called the deer’s controversial right G-3 "a gray area." Boucher categorically denies such claims.

"There have been some reports that implied that I have either vacillated or changed my mind or wasn’t sure about the G-3 on the right-side of the King Buck. Nothing could be further from the truth. I haven’t changed at all. My position has been firm since Day 1."

In the D&DH exclusive, Boucher said the King Buck, to his knowledge,  is the first straight 6-by-6 with no abnormal points ever to gross over 220 inches. B&C, however, has stated that it will not panel-score the buck. The Wisconsin Buck & Bear Club, which has remained silent since this story broke, had previously arranged two panel-scoring sessions. Both sessions were allegedly called off at the last moment after a B&C official was tipped off that they were planning to review the King Buck.

42 thoughts on “B&C Scorer: There is No Gray Area with King Buck

  1. Pingback: Video: Johnny King Buck is world record white tail! | Deer & Deer Hunting | Whitetail Deer Advice and Instruction

  2. Chris

    True GrandView, forget them due to the low pub for the other bureaus. Use them everyone, make a push to bring the others more entries, more pub, and more mainstream cred. Great point GrandView.

  3. GrandView

    The King buck’s abnormal point was a panel ruling. A panel of high-ranking B&C and P&Y personnel. The reasons for their ruling were stated in the B&C reply of May 10. Thus far no one….not even the scorers who protest the official score have refuted that specific ruling.

    No need to establish another scoring system. There are at least two other existing systems (Buckmasters and SCI) that do not have the symmetry requirements of B&C or P&Y. As a matter of fact……..the most recently contested potential record trophies by B&C and/or P&Y…….are now listed as world records in their respective categories by Buckmasters. The Koberstein, Zaft, and King bucks.

    If that’s your desire………it’s been done.

  4. Chris

    Looks like the world needs a new scoring bureau. Someone should start it. No cost, for hunters, by hunters, done as a fair and honest labor of love just as hunting is treated by the rest of us working men and women see it to be. I have yet to shoot a booner, but reading this makes me careless if I ever do. Point out any comments directed to me, and I may have to start a Facebook page to get the ball rolling.

  5. Jim

    I am an avid deer hunter and bought a deer and deer hunting magazine today and could not believe this story about the king buck!!! Its a shame that Mr. Reneau can not be a big enough man and allow a panel to score this deer. If one person from B&C can make a final ruling on any deer and thats it then it is a flawed system. It makes me ask the question, why would Mr Reneau be so against letting a panel judge the animal. If he is so sure that he is correct then the panel will agree with him. Obviously, he is very concerned that he made the wrong decision and knows that his ruling will be overturned. I would have a lot more respect for him and B&C if they did panel score the animal. Also, in the future all world record potential animals should only be scored by a panel and not one individual so this never happens again.

  6. mark hogen

    to whom it may concern in the B&C club: my son shot a HUGE buck this past year- we had it scored and was approached by a scorer to enter the buck in the record book.He thought about it for awhile and decided not to.He remembered a quote I told him W.C FIELDS made "I would not belong to any group,club,or association that would have me as a member!??".Basically reminding us we don’t need to see our name in print to remind us of my son’s trophy–that he photographed it with his trail camera before he shot it & AFTER with the arrow still in it! Too bad he didn’t find it for a couple of days –but my hat goes off to him-he contacted the local warden & he allowed my son to use his tag on it!!
    One more comment-Mr. Reneau DOESN’T KNOW JACK!!!! B&C- you’ll never get any more entries for your book (& money)
    if you let Reneau keep his job! It takes a big man to do his job-but even a bigger one to admit he made a mistake.

  7. Brian

    It seems to me the arrogance and politics of the British has corrupted our American B&C system. I agree it is time to remove those in control, especially the spinless followers just below Mr.Reneau. Score the rack!

  8. Clayton Stepp

    I have hunted for 30 years dreaming of an entry into B&C. I do not live in a state that produces alot of "big deer". This situation and B&C’s stance on it has eased my mind. Thank you B&C, I don’t need to be associated in anyway with you or your politically corrupt arrogance. I will be waiting to see a responsible solution to restore respect and honor to a once highly held institution. Until then I will teach honor, and respect to my son when we go a field and not mention B&C at all.

  9. jay

    Maybe we can call it The Hunters World Record, or The Peoples World Record. This animal is getting worked over in a bad way.
    Jason you are correct! First post.

  10. Kyle

    I agree with everyone. I have ripped the full pic out of this months magazine and put it on my cubical wall at work. Someone needs to recognize this World Record TYPICAL!!!

  11. SFC

    This buck has been prejudiced from the moment ONE man (Jack Reneau) condemned it from the typical scoring process. The Boone and Crocket Club has formally put all other scorers on notice, that it does not need the services or professional opinions, from any other scorers within or outside of it’s group. If one man has the power to make a decision (based on his subjective interpetation of the rules) concerning an animal and it is deamed final, quite simply and obviously the Boone and Crocket Club program is a one man show. When the vast majority of scorers that have looked at the buck and determined it to be a typical, that tells me that the B&C system is flawed. No one individual should have the latitude to impact, not just the Boone and Crocket organization, but directly impact the state of Wisconsin’s scoring system AND disqualify the animal from there as well. Also, what happened to the professional guide line, that extremely subjective calls (as this apparantly is) were always given to the animal in fairness to the animal. The checks and balances for any scoring systems are all over the country with the many professionally recognized individuals who have scored as many or more animals as Mr. Reneau. His peers have overwhelmingly and continuously said he has made a mistake in his assessment of the King buck. It is time the Boone and Crocket Organization does the same.

  12. Jchrisbarnes

    Why is there not an appeal process set-up for matters such as this? Every system has an appeals process and/or mediation capabilities. Is the B&C system set-up in a way that one individual can affect the outcome of an incredible animal not getting it’s due? This alone is troubling. Why would an organization such as B&C not have such a system in place or a "pecking order" in cases such as this?! My suggestion is that B&C not focus on new scoring methods until a system is in place for events such as the King Buck’s scenario. Give this magnificent animal it’s day and put it infront of an unbiased panel as it should be.

  13. AL Sullivan

    Reneau is a total Jerk ! I was scoring Deer for the Maryland Big Buck Program about 15 years ago and Reneau was right next to me scoring also. Fred Dolinger had a buck up there to be entered in the Maryland Book. I had Officially scored the Buck at about 145 + (not sure of actual score without looking it up). Another B&C scorer scored it at about 138. Fred came to me and showed me the sheet. I noticed right away the the 4th circumference measurement was not on the sheet and the space was blank ! I showed it to Reneau and he said Oh it doesn’t have enough points so we don’t add that in ! They didn’t know how to score this Deer !! This was a 6 point buck (No brow tines) so they weren’t going to give credit for those 4th main beam circumferences !! Instructions Clearly state that you must give credit for 4 measurements. The 4th is taken at half the distance between the G-3 and the tip of the beam. In fact Reneau said we don’t have 8 pointers and deer like this in Boone & Crockett ! Bull !! I was an official scorer for P&Y and Maryland for many years ! Because of this incident Reneau didn’t want me to score for Boone and Crockett heads ! I had to show them and read the instructions to them on their own Organizations Score Sheet ! Boone and Crockett is a joke with this guy in charge of any decisions !!

  14. Jim

    How can we who love this sport and cherish the animals, allow one person to unilaterally not allow this deer to be panel reviewed? Either Reneau has a legitimate position that will be supported by others, or politics and money are in the way.

    Panel score the deer. If it is a new world record, wonderful. If it isn’t, it is still an amazing animal we can all be proud of.

    D & DH: Anything we can do to help right this wrong?

  15. VAWhiteTailHunter76

    PANEL SCORE THE BUCK ! One man’s ego should not stand in the way of a possible world record. This is about recognizing the deer not the hunter. I agree with KBW, it’s time we the hunting public demand accountability of B&C and especially Jack Reneau. This is sickening. Reminds me of our current POTUS and the federal government. All knowing and all powerful and we the peasants will be told what to do and think.

  16. mike powell

    i must ask if this hunters name was was let say bill jordan or stan potts or one of to so called pro hunters who have there own private deer herds i’ll bet there would be no question about it this would be in every hunting magazine written. shame on mr reneau , mr king your buck is the world record in most hunters minds ,the hell with these so called experts its all politics. you don not rub elbows with the right people, your just a hard working blue collar type man. so they will screw you , it all politics and jealiosy, you shot it they did not that they can not take away . great buck ,grads to you

  17. muley hunter

    The fact that ithe rack was scored at 226 and 6/8 as a typical by a certified top-ten SCI measurer provides substantial compelling evidence that it absolutely should be scored by a B & C panel. To refuse to do so casts considerable suspicion on the motives of the B & C Club.

  18. KBWood

    As a long time hunter and corporate accountability professional, I find the actions of Jack Reneau troubling. His steadfast refusal to relate his side of his encounter with this trophy and his continued stubbornness have my professional hackles up.When I encounter attitudes as Mr Reneau is portrayed to have professionally, I immediately start looking for what the benefit is to individual – what is Mr Reneau protecting? I am unwilling to questions anybody ethics just yet but do say it is time for a general upheaval and demand accountability of Mr Reneau and everybody else in this despicable mess.

  19. Admin

    It actually already has been submitted (and accepted) by SCI. With an SCI score of 226-6/8 typical, the King Buck is No. 2 in SCI’s all-time book.

  20. muley hunter

    I agree. It needs to be panel-scored by a team of unbiased, uninvolved whitetail scoring experts, who are not afraid of Jack Reneau or the B & C club. I still fel that it needs to be submitted to Safari Club International for scoring and entry into its North American Big Game Animals Record Book. SCI utilizes a very fair scoring methodology and has a team of skilled scorers, some of whom are certified to score top-ten entries.

  21. GaLarry

    In my mind the world record typical whitetail is now the King buck from Wisconsin! The heck with what ONE man,with a probable hidden agenda,says and thinks. Congrats to Mr. King on an incredible deer!

  22. I.R. Vail

    To treat a potenially world record set of antlers from the B&C records merely because ONE man is objecting is criminal.. !!! By all means panel score the rack, get this one of a kind whitetail in the record books where it belongs. !!! Do the right thing !!!!

  23. Mike

    Panel score the deer. Why is that so hard to do? I don’t care if it is typical or non-typical, world’s record or no world’s record. Just simply panel score it to make the right choice. This should have been done already. I guarantee someone has some hidden reason (most likely financial) for not scoring this deer. I hope the truth of the matter is someday soon revealed.

  24. Jack

    I agree that is hogwash Woody. The four scorers were Reneau, the two guys from P&Y that were mentioned in the article and one other guy. The same guys that Mr. King saw when he went to Pennsylvania. But know I heard that the two P&Y guys said they actually never looked at the rack, they were just going off of the photos. So in essence it really all did just boil down to Reneaus opinion. I don’t understand why they just can panel score it and be done with it. this is a world record we are talking about.

  25. Woody

    I emailed the B&C and quickly got a response that linked me to Trophy Watch. Here is the link: http://www.boone-crockett.org/news/trophyWatch.asp?area=news#watch1118B8D0-8B66-4A93-9B3C-C9759941AE2D.
    It claims 4 seasoned scorers that have been B&C staff members or served on committees concurred with the secretaries ruling. Hogwash! The KIng Buck deserves an objective panel review with experienced panel members that have not previously touched the King Buck. The B&C’s arogants on this matter shows a lack of respect to all hunters.

  26. Kyle

    What really gets under my skin is that fact that, that the buck is “Tine to Tine” one of the world’s largest typical whitetail’s to ever be recorded. The buck has been strutting his stuff for 4+ years in his home range and he can’t get the respect he deserves because one man makes a controversial decision that can’t even be panel scored. If they panel scored it and it came up short than at least it got the chance to be sized up with the best. The fact that this buck has been measured with a state of the art laser device that states that the G3’s are typical that says enough. This is a tragedy to everyone that enjoys the sport of hunting, wildlife management, or just the outdoors.

  27. Sterling Proffitt

    It’s a shame when politics has to pervade something as simple as credible scoring on a whitetail deer buck’s rack. This is not rocket science, but scoring based on what is suppose to be unbiased governing protocol. This contorversy was and is caused by juvenile egos, which leads to me to say that there are times when some people need to stop and smell what they are shoveling. Politics has 8 letters, so can be characterized
    as being two 4-letter words, and we all know what that means. With a variation on the spelling, "poly" means more than one, and "ticks" are parasites, so that translates to "polyticks’ as being a bunch of blood suckers that go around draining the life’s energy out of its unwilling hosts for their own survival. That is what is going on here with this intransigence on providing a fair and reasonable scoring of the King Buck.
    C’mon people, admit you were wrong initially, and go and do the right thing, and honor this animal with its rightful place in the record book. Are your sensibilities really that fragile?

  28. Stan

    Asking for a panel score is not score shopping as the B&C would have all of us believe. Rather it should be looked at as a reasonable method of challenging the opinions of one fallible human.

  29. dean r yates

    Panel score the deer pictures i have seen of this amazing buck Wow the deer an Mr King should be recognized for this amazing accomplishment an one amazing whitetail deer

  30. stan

    The King buck is getting a raw deal. Jack Reneau, the B&C scorer who says it is not a typical, wrote an article a couple years back on scoring changes he felt should be put in place and they may have been, I am not sure. So his evaluation now of this being nontypical is in line with the article he wrote. So yes, he has his own self serving interest in this battle. I say we need a ground swell of sportsman to keep writing about this issue and bring B&C to their senses or risk becoming irrelevant. Tell everyone you know, boycott and email B&C and urge the Wis. bear and buck club to do their own panel score. Are they so afraid of the B&C hierarchy? If they are then they need to be rotated out.

  31. Rick

    Allowing an ego trip like the B&C Secretary demeans the entire organization and its storied history. 4th grader? How about Nursery school?? Should be panel scored – let the panel decide.

  32. james mundy

    I think all the real hunters who have seen this buck already consider it the new typical record. I would however hope it can be panel scored for the "official record". Congrats to mr. King on taking a incredible animal.

  33. brad brown

    Stop the pissing contest and DO THE RIGHT THING….they are acting like a 4th grade girl who lost her purse….all of you GROW UP…..JEEEEEEZ…

  34. Jack

    Interesting question by Tom…"he didn’t invent the scoring system did he?" Just Google "Grancel Fitz." The scoring systmes that both B&C and P&Y use today was ripped off from a man named Grancel Fitz. He invented the scoring system in the 1930s and wrote a book on it. His system was also used in New York State as a way of keeping track of trophy heads until the B&C revised it in 1949 and made a few changes to it. So others have basically taken credit for his scoring system all of these years.

  35. Tom

    It should be panel scored.

    King only "shopped" around because they won’t panel score it because one person said the g3s are abnormal.

    We’re not talking about "shopping" in the sense some guy is talking about getting his 169.5" "award" category into the 170" "all-time" category.

    We’re talking about a hunter with a potential B&C typical world record whitetail. I think sticking with policy just to stick with policy, in this case, is a bad policy.

    Unfortunately King may have to wait until the egos retire. They need to save face, right? If it were me having made the snap decision on the g3s I think I’d relax a little, and let other B&C scorers panel judge the deer.

    He might be the secretary of B&C but he didn’t invent the scoring system, did he?

    Coming from a hunter – and life member in the NRA – I’d give the hunter the benefit of the doubt and at least have it panel scored. Special case – potential world record.

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