Alsheimer or Rue?

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hunter480
 
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RE: Alsheimer or Rue?

Postby hunter480 » Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:12 am

ORIGINAL: JPH

ORIGINAL: hunter480

So sorry that my opinions upset you. You really expect a simple, "I like this view", without why?

very superficial if so. I like to dig a little deeper and have some substance to a debate.

And I didn`t disrespect LLR, I simply stated that I don`t buy into his thinking.


I don't have an issue with your opinions. If you think that CA is dead on, I enjoy hearing about why. I was just a little unclear on why we need to take it into "what we don't like about the other guy's views".

I guess the idea behind the OP was a "poll" rather than a "debate". But it's an open fourm so fire away.

Lastly,we differ on what constitues disrespect. To state that one of LLR's views is "baseless" fits my definition.

 
Fair enough.....we disagree on everything.

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JPH
 
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RE: Alsheimer or Rue?

Postby JPH » Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:39 am

ORIGINAL: Squirrelhawker

That part of the theory has to do with the fact that it is advantageous for fawns to be born under the dark of the moon for furthur protection from immediate predation. Since the gestation period for deer remains the same at 200 days but the moon phase shifts, hence the theory of moon phase influencing the rut.

 
Now THAT is intreasting. I have never seen it presented that way. Maybe I haven't read CA's articles carefully enough.
 
I find it a lot easier to buy into any theory that cites fawn survival as the driving force behind rut timing.
 
Thanks for an enlightening post.

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JPH
 
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RE: Alsheimer or Rue?

Postby JPH » Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:40 am

ORIGINAL: hunter480
Fair enough.....we disagree on everything.

 
I hope that is limited to this topic.

NEW61375
 
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RE: Alsheimer or Rue?

Postby NEW61375 » Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:15 am

ORIGINAL: Robert Rowland

They could both be onto something. Maybe the rut trigger is a combination of photo cycle and moon phase. Ask any paramedic and he will tell you that the moon phase causes lots of things to happen.  Maybe the photo cycle sets the mood, and the moon pulls the trigger.


I tend to agree with this but my overall opinion on the topic is very similiar to CA except for the actual dates.

I believe photperiod in the fall along with the new moon of September(when it falls late like this year 9-29-2008) or the new moon in October(when it falls early like last year 10-11 2007), are the two thing that trigger a does 30 day estrous cycle and start ratcheting up bucks testosterone levels.

The thing that isn't convincing to me about the trigger just being photoperiod is how photoperiod actually takes place.  Yes the amount of light gets shorter but we are talking about a minute or two each day, to me that doesn't seem like much of a stimulous but I do fell it helps gets the deer started.  

This is the part where I tend to agree with CA about a more significant trigger being involved and he often mentions the second full moon or the "Rutting Moon" as some call it, I feel like the new moon has a bigger effect and he eludes to something similiar in his studies regarding third quarter changes in deer hormones.  Some new studies have shown that the amount of melatonin produced by the pineal gland can be cut by over 50% on bright nights(before, during, and after full moon) and even though photoperiod may have started estous cycles those bright nights around the rutting moon could cause a lull or slow the pace of the cycle a little imo until a little later in the month. 

Which brings us to the new moon which is two weeks later in the month,  I believe the second new moon and the days preceding and following it(about Oct 25-Oct 31 this year) serve as the kickstart to the real action.  These nights are very dark and cause spikes in melatonin output from the pineal glands in both bucks and does which I believe triggers higher testosterone level in bucks heightening their sexual aggression and triggers a does actual "heat cycle" which is the last 7 days of her full estrous cycle which is what I was talking about earlier being cued by photoperiod and the dark nights around Septembers new moon, Sept. 29.  Ive read that only the final 1 or 2 days of those last 7 days is when the doe is receptive to breeding.   

My predictions(jmo):

The actual breeding part of the rut will be about 7 days later than the time frame of Oct 24-Nov. 5 which is a few days before Octobers late new moon and a few days after. (So roughly Nov.1 -12)  <<<  Shocking I know.Image

hunter480
 
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RE: Alsheimer or Rue?

Postby hunter480 » Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:00 am

ORIGINAL: JPH

ORIGINAL: hunter480
Fair enough.....we disagree on everything.


I hope that is limited to this topic.

 
Absolutely man.

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RE: Alsheimer or Rue?

Postby hunter480 » Thu Sep 25, 2008 6:20 am

ORIGINAL: NEW61375

ORIGINAL: Robert Rowland

They could both be onto something. Maybe the rut trigger is a combination of photo cycle and moon phase. Ask any paramedic and he will tell you that the moon phase causes lots of things to happen.  Maybe the photo cycle sets the mood, and the moon pulls the trigger.


I tend to agree with this but my overall opinion on the topic is very similiar to CA except for the actual dates.

I believe photperiod in the fall along with the new moon of September(when it falls late like this year 9-29-2008) or the new moon in October(when it falls early like last year 10-11 2007), are the two thing that trigger a does 30 day estrous cycle and start ratcheting up bucks testosterone levels.

The thing that isn't convincing to me about the trigger just being photoperiod is how photoperiod actually takes place.  Yes the amount of light gets shorter but we are talking about a minute or two each day, to me that doesn't seem like much of a stimulous but I do fell it helps gets the deer started.  

This is the part where I tend to agree with CA about a more significant trigger being involved and he often mentions the second full moon or the "Rutting Moon" as some call it, I feel like the new moon has a bigger effect and hel eludes to something similiar in his studies regarding third quarter chnages in deer hormones.  Some new studies have shown that the amount of melatonin produced by the pineal gland can be cut by over 50% on bright nights(before, during, and after full moon) and even though photoperiod may have started estous cycles those bright nights around the rutting moon could cause a lull or slow the pace of the cycle a little imo until a little later in the month. 

Which brings us to the new moon which is two weeks later in the month,  I believe the second new moon and the days preceding and following it(about Oct 25-Oct 31 this year) serve as the kickstart to the real action.  These nights are very dark and cause spikes in melatonin output from the pineal glands in both bucks and does which I believe triggers higher testosterone level in bucks heightening their sexual aggression and triggers a does actual "heat cycle" which is the last 7 days of her full estrous cycle which is what I was talking about earlier being cued by photoperiod and the dark nights around Septembers new moon, Sept. 29.  Ive read that only the final 1 or 2 days of those last 7 days is when the doe is receptive to breeding.   

My predictions(jmo):

The actual breeding part of the rut will be about 7 days later than the time frame of Oct 24-Nov. 5 which is a few days before Octobers late new moon and a few days after. (So roughly Nov.1 -12)  <<<  Shocking I know.Image

 
Your hypothesis is very interesting, but lacks any real substance. A lot of "IMO", but not much else.
 
Interesting though, nonetheless.

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RE: Alsheimer or Rue?

Postby Squirrelhawker » Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:27 am

ORIGINAL: JPH

ORIGINAL: Squirrelhawker

That part of the theory has to do with the fact that it is advantageous for fawns to be born under the dark of the moon for furthur protection from immediate predation. Since the gestation period for deer remains the same at 200 days but the moon phase shifts, hence the theory of moon phase influencing the rut.


Now THAT is intreasting. I have never seen it presented that way. Maybe I haven't read CA's articles carefully enough.

I find it a lot easier to buy into any theory that cites fawn survival as the driving force behind rut timing.

Thanks for an enlightening post.

 
I find it an incredibly interesting topic. And that element of it is one that I don't remember CA really hammering a lot compared to how other aspects of his moon phase research apply to us. I think it was buried in one of his books or articles,etc.
 
Another thing I think a lot of us doen't get right away is that this moon phase deal is all about something most of us are already agreeing with to a certain extent, and that is photo-periodism.  Light. Sunlight and moonlight.
 
It makes sense to me. The shortening daylight having it's constant effects on deer in terms of antler growth, hair coat, hormonal changes as precursors to breeding, etc. And then the actual act of breeding. That tiny window when the doe will actually stand for a buck. It must happen within a definite window, and, if we're to accept CA's theory as it relates to fawning, the moon is the likeliest candidate. It provides a light source, it is always present yet changes somewhat from year to year. If the does pituitary glands are indeed responding to the changing moonlight, breeding and subsequent birthing cannot help but be synchronous. Cool stuff.

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JPH
 
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RE: Alsheimer or Rue?

Postby JPH » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:49 am

In addition to personal experience, here is why I believe that the timing of the rut is triggered by photocycle and is constant from year to year. 
 
Animals breed in order to enshure the survival of the species, so animals should breed at a time that offers the best chance for the offspring to survive.
 
Fawn survival is heavily influenced by: 1) The amount of cover available. 2) the amount of weight a fawn can put on before the onset of winter.
 
So the best time for a fawn to drop would be as soon as the bottom canopy of the woods is thick enough to provide cover. Granted, the later the drop the thicker the cover, but each passing week is a week closer to winter. So the timing is delecate.
 
Moon phases shift widely from year to year and have nothing to do with when the woods will green up or when the weather will turn cold. Photocycle does not shift and has a direct influence on both.
 
Is there some degree of variation? You bet! If there wasn't, nature would be putting all of its eggs in one basket. If a doe breeds early/late it may force her fawn into a tough spot. But in those instances where there is a freak snowstorm or other act of nature, those early/late does enshure at least some fawn survival.
 
My apologies to LLR if I have botched the explination, but it is the best I can do. Again, all due respect to CA and what he has taught us.

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RE: Alsheimer or Rue?

Postby Squirrelhawker » Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:03 am

ORIGINAL: JPH

In addition to personal experience, here is why I believe that the timing of the rut is triggered by photocycle and is constant from year to year. 

Animals breed in order to enshure the survival of the species, so animals should breed at a time that offers the best chance for the offspring to survive.

Fawn survival is heavily influenced by: 1) The amount of cover available. 2) the amount of weight a fawn can put on before the onset of winter.

So the best time for a fawn to drop would be as soon as the bottom canopy of the woods is thick enough to provide cover. Granted, the later the drop the thicker the cover, but each passing week is a week closer to winter. So the timing is delecate.

Moon phases shift widely from year to year and have nothing to do with when the woods will green up or when the weather will turn cold. Photocycle does not shift and has a direct influence on both.

Is there some degree of variation? You bet! If there wasn't, nature would be putting all of its eggs in one basket. If a doe breeds early/late it may force her fawn into a tough spot. But in those instances where there is a freak snowstorm or other act of nature, those early/late does enshure at least some fawn survival.

My apologies to LLR if I have botched the explination, but it is the best I can do. Again, all due respect to CA and what he has taught us.

 
You're absolutely right about fawns needing to be born in time to put on weight. And the cover is also IMO a key factor. However your statement re moon phases "varying widely" IMO is not really true within the context how I think you meant it. It is true that moon phases vary, but if you go back and look you will see that it is a matter of weeks and not months.
 
Once again this allows ( if you're a proponent of the moon) for the fawn drop to occur close to, or totally on, the dark of the moon yet will always allow sufficient time for fawn development.

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JPH
 
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RE: Alsheimer or Rue?

Postby JPH » Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:17 am

Okay, we differ on a very narrow point.
 
I understand that the moon phase cycles every 28 days. So we are only looking a few weeks differnece in timing (if the moon is the trigger).
 
My point is that green up happens very quickly, and from there the countdown to winter has begun.
 
Looks like CA has a little better following among the posters here. But it's close.
 

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