Alsheimer or Rue?

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hunter480
 
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RE: Alsheimer or Rue?

Postby hunter480 » Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:19 am

ORIGINAL: NEW61375

ORIGINAL: hunter480

ORIGINAL: NEW61375

[quote]ORIGINAL: Robert Rowland

They could both be onto something. Maybe the rut trigger is a combination of photo cycle and moon phase. Ask any paramedic and he will tell you that the moon phase causes lots of things to happen.  Maybe the photo cycle sets the mood, and the moon pulls the trigger.


I tend to agree with this but my overall opinion on the topic is very similiar to CA except for the actual dates.

I believe photperiod in the fall along with the new moon of September(when it falls late like this year 9-29-2008) or the new moon in October(when it falls early like last year 10-11 2007), are the two thing that trigger a does 30 day estrous cycle and start ratcheting up bucks testosterone levels.

The thing that isn't convincing to me about the trigger just being photoperiod is how photoperiod actually takes place.  Yes the amount of light gets shorter but we are talking about a minute or two each day, to me that doesn't seem like much of a stimulous but I do fell it helps gets the deer started.  

This is the part where I tend to agree with CA about a more significant trigger being involved and he often mentions the second full moon or the "Rutting Moon" as some call it, I feel like the new moon has a bigger effect and hel eludes to something similiar in his studies regarding third quarter chnages in deer hormones.  Some new studies have shown that the amount of melatonin produced by the pineal gland can be cut by over 50% on bright nights(before, during, and after full moon) and even though photoperiod may have started estous cycles those bright nights around the rutting moon could cause a lull or slow the pace of the cycle a little imo until a little later in the month. 

Which brings us to the new moon which is two weeks later in the month,  I believe the second new moon and the days preceding and following it(about Oct 25-Oct 31 this year) serve as the kickstart to the real action.  These nights are very dark and cause spikes in melatonin output from the pineal glands in both bucks and does which I believe triggers higher testosterone level in bucks heightening their sexual aggression and triggers a does actual "heat cycle" which is the last 7 days of her full estrous cycle which is what I was talking about earlier being cued by photoperiod and the dark nights around Septembers new moon, Sept. 29.  Ive read that only the final 1 or 2 days of those last 7 days is when the doe is receptive to breeding.   

My predictions(jmo):

The actual breeding part of the rut will be about 7 days later than the time frame of Oct 24-Nov. 5 which is a few days before Octobers late new moon and a few days after. (So roughly Nov.1 -12)  <<<  Shocking I know.Image


Your hypothesis is very interesting, but lacks any real substance. A lot of "IMO", but not much else.

Interesting though, nonetheless.


Absolutely, it is just that, my opinion.  Granted I have plenty of real woods experience and have researched extensively the pineal gland(not just in deer) and how exactly it responds to light (sun & moon) as well as plentyof moon phase theories  And base on what I've seen and read I reached my opinion.  Which is precisely what the "experts" are giving us as well, their opinions.  I know where I hunt my dates fit last year much better than the ones predicted by D & DH so I'll try it again this season with my dates and see what the results are.
[/quote]
 
And without a doubt, we`ll all be extremely curious as to what your personal results are. I know I speak for everyone when I say, I hope you will report back after the season.

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dmcianfa
 
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RE: Alsheimer or Rue?

Postby dmcianfa » Fri Sep 26, 2008 9:59 am

ORIGINAL: hunter480

ORIGINAL: dmcianfa

ORIGINAL: JPH

[quote]ORIGINAL: dmcianfa

I have three words and a secret to tell everyone about this topic:

"STATISTICS NEVER LIE"

Look at the numbers associated with each of the studies by both individuals.  Although C.A. has many more data points, or samples so to speak, you can still compare them to each other or both baselines.  Just look at the statistics from a mathematical standpoint and use that instead of coming up with hair brain ideas on why you think its one way or the other, without "data driven facts" to back them up.  Data will always tell you whats going on in a process, unless you have "special causes" as we engineers know can be thrown in the mix.  Such as the suppressors that I explained earlier.  DATA is king not "what I've seen being in the woods two weekends out of the rutting month".  Start putting up the numbers in each study and stop talking about speculation on fawn birthing and what not!  This kind of talk without facts really grinds my gears sometimes.  Anyway, happy hunting! 


Wow am I glad you came along to save us from ourselves!

I thought D&DH was founded on the idea of the "Stumpsitters", or in other words, regular hunters who were willing to share their experiences. I did not know that I needed to have data points or pie-grafts in order to express an opinion on deer or deer hunting.

Anyway, sorry to grind your gears. [8|]


JPH,
sorry if I upset you.[;)]

I just get sick of people bantering back and forth like children about how each other's father can beat up the other.  Somebody get the facts (data from articles) and list them, that will tell the whole story, plain and simple is all.  Don't you agree?  I have no quarrels with anyone willing to share an experience, maybe I was a little harsh, but just because joe blow saw a fawn on so and so date doesn't make it golden rule!  All i'm saying is every natural object has a normal distribution in its process, find that normal distribution, whether that be affected by lunar or solar or whatever, and show that it correlates, with proven data and whalla!!!!!  Your theory is substantiated and validated.  And no, you don't need data points to reflect your opinion, but when you try to will that opinion onto others, then you better back that *%#$ up.  That's all I'm saying.


Two things here.....

First, facts, statistics and data can all be skewed in the way they`re presented to make whatever point the presenter desires. Pretty simple concept, been going on for eons.....

Second, what exactly IS fact in regards to rutting activity. Especially when two such noted people such as Alsheimer and LLR differ on the subject. Obviously, there is much hypothesis and speculation, and not a lot of "fact". So we`re left mostly with what we saw 'During our two weeks" of the month long rut. Which, by the way, rutting activity goes on for at least 3 months.

I can appreciate your engineer`s penchant for facts and data, but the reality is, in deer hunting, and in particular, concerning the rut, there just isn`t much of what we could call facts, available.
[/quote]


Yes, you are right, facts, data, and statistics can be skewed to reflect one's views.  But, if, and only if all of the data is not presented and some is left out intentionally to represent that view. 
 
Secondly, I was referring to the two weeks your out in the woods interpreting sign or actually hunting, not how long the rut actually is.  Read the post before you open yourself up to criticism! 
 
Lastly, how do you know if there is or is not a good portion of facts in the analyzation of the rut, do you study it?  If so, do tell and give me a viable answer as to how you know there is little fact to the rut, not just another sentence lacking substance!  PAAAALEASE!
"I enjoy and become completely immersed in the challenge and the increased opportunity to become for a time a part of nature. Deer hunting is a classical exercise in freedom. It�s a return to fundamentals that I distinctly feel are basic and right"-F.B.

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dmcianfa
 
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RE: Alsheimer or Rue?

Postby dmcianfa » Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:20 am

ORIGINAL: JPH

ORIGINAL: dmcianfa
JPH,
sorry if I upset you.[;)]

I just get sick of people bantering back and forth like children about how each other's father can beat up the other.  Somebody get the facts (data from articles) and list them, that will tell the whole story, plain and simple is all.  Don't you agree?  I have no quarrels with anyone willing to share an experience, maybe I was a little harsh, but just because joe blow saw a fawn on so and so date doesn't make it golden rule!  All i'm saying is every natural object has a normal distribution in its process, find that normal distribution, whether that be affected by lunar or solar or whatever, and show that it correlates, with proven data and whalla!!!!!  Your theory is substantiated and validated.  And no, you don't need data points to reflect your opinion, but when you try to will that opinion onto others, then you better back that *%#$ up.  That's all I'm saying.


Not shure where to start here.

I guess my first question is, who is trying to "will their opinion on others"? I saw this thread as an open discussion about two great deer researchers and our opinions of their work.

I would go on further to suggest that since the thread is in refrence to CA and LLR, the data that they have listed in their D&DH articles would be implied. I do not think it would be valuable for all of us to dig out our old issues and cite work that everyone is already familliar with.

IMO, your background as an Engineer is of little value when dealing with this topic. We are talking about wild animals here, not lifeless points of data. Intuition, experience and observation are each of equal or greater weight.

And lastly, don't talk down to people, at least not after 8 posts. Many of us have spent considerable time sharing ideas and opinions here. For example, Hunter480 and I disagree strongly on many topics, but we have a mutual respect. That is a respect that you have not earned.

And while we're at it. My Dad is in poor health, but in his day he could take your Dad!



JPH,

This thread is an open discussion, thats why I am posting too!!!

If your familiar with the numbers, by all means use them in this post to reflect your opinion.  That is what I'm saying.  Data never lies!  The data they gathered is not implied data, it is actual events.  CA or LLR implie their THEORIES BASED on the data, not the other way around.

I hate to break it to you, but even wild animal exhibit distribution in some manner in their habits and lifestyle.  If you can track that distribution you can then put that data into a statistical reference.  My god man!!! Pick up a book.

Finally,   Just because you post a couple times more than someone else on this forum doesn't mean your better than anyone else here.   Does that mean you see and know all, I think not?  Cmon' get over yourself, you aren't the chosen one on this server just becuase you have a few hundred posts under your belt and you think you can boss people around on this site.  Also, I don't have to earn your respect, why would you ever think that, I don't even know you????  It's a forum dude! Wow, such animosity! A familiar statement comes to mind in response to you:  "wearing that badge doesn't make you right". 

That statement about Dad's is going overboard don't you think?  I never directed my words towards you personally, only the view or topic at hand and while using constructive criticism in the process!  Your just being cruel now with superfluous insults.
"I enjoy and become completely immersed in the challenge and the increased opportunity to become for a time a part of nature. Deer hunting is a classical exercise in freedom. It�s a return to fundamentals that I distinctly feel are basic and right"-F.B.

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dmcianfa
 
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RE: Alsheimer or Rue?

Postby dmcianfa » Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:48 am

ORIGINAL: Squirrelhawker

ORIGINAL: dmcianfa

I have three words and a secret to tell everyone about this topic:

"STATISTICS NEVER LIE"

Look at the numbers associated with each of the studies by both individuals.  Although C.A. has many more data points, or samples so to speak, you can still compare them to each other or both baselines.  Just look at the statistics from a mathematical standpoint and use that instead of coming up with hair brain ideas on why you think its one way or the other, without "data driven facts" to back them up.  Data will always tell you whats going on in a process, unless you have "special causes" as we engineers know can be thrown in the mix.  Such as the suppressors that I explained earlier.  DATA is king not "what I've seen being in the woods two weekends out of the rutting month".  Start putting up the numbers in each study and stop talking about speculation on fawn birthing and what not!  This kind of talk without facts really grinds my gears sometimes.  Anyway, happy hunting! 


I almost never respond to posts like this unless I'm personally involved, but dude, you just intellectually unzipped your fly in front of a whole bunch of people who obviously know way more about this topic than you realize.

"Just look at the statistics from a mathmatical standpoint and use that instead of coming up with hair brain ideas on why you think its one way or another"
 
How old are you? I'm trying not to turn this into a personal attack but this is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen posted. We're   not trying to come up with anything. We were discussing the research and our respective opinions of, two giants in the world of deer hunting and deer research. The "speculation" of fawn birthing that you're referring to, happens to be an integral part of one of the aformentioned experts research. Or, did you miss that part? Now I know us deer hunters are not as smart as you engineer types, but from my short tenure here, I've noticed that most of us are managing to read the posts and actually comprehend what is being talked about.
Sheesh[8|]

 
 
 
Since your being a "you know what" I'm going to take the high road here.
It's nice that you can hide behind your computer, because if I ever had someone say this to me personally, whel, lets just say a trip to the toolshed would be in order.  Grow up, I have.  You'd probably be suprised that I'm older than you judging by your words in your last post!!!!  you made it personal with this post, don't say you don't mean to make it an attack by posting this nonsense.  That was never an intention of mine throughout and we should cease responding to each other!  I wil not reply to anything you say from here on out.  Your tenure here may be much shorter than you realize if you keep posting comments like that.
"I enjoy and become completely immersed in the challenge and the increased opportunity to become for a time a part of nature. Deer hunting is a classical exercise in freedom. It�s a return to fundamentals that I distinctly feel are basic and right"-F.B.

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dmcianfa
 
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RE: Alsheimer or Rue?

Postby dmcianfa » Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:24 am

Oh yeah, I almost forgot too squirrelhawker!  Here are some site rules and regs
 
Gratuitous insults will not be tolerated. If you're criticizing work, criticize the work, not the person. And always justify. It's generally better to make criticism constructive, and direct words at the behavior, not the person or firm: "What they did was idiotic" is less likely to offend than "they're idiots," which is personal. 

Read the admin's rules, even though I "only have 8 posts" I don't have to post over 300 times to read this section first!!!  It would be wise if you did the same.
 
Happy Hunting[:)]
"I enjoy and become completely immersed in the challenge and the increased opportunity to become for a time a part of nature. Deer hunting is a classical exercise in freedom. It�s a return to fundamentals that I distinctly feel are basic and right"-F.B.

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OHhunter
 
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RE: Alsheimer or Rue?

Postby OHhunter » Fri Sep 26, 2008 4:00 pm

ORIGINAL: dmcianfa

ORIGINAL: hunter480

ORIGINAL: dmcianfa

[quote]ORIGINAL: JPH

[quote]ORIGINAL: dmcianfa

I have three words and a secret to tell everyone about this topic:

"STATISTICS NEVER LIE"

Look at the numbers associated with each of the studies by both individuals.  Although C.A. has many more data points, or samples so to speak, you can still compare them to each other or both baselines.  Just look at the statistics from a mathematical standpoint and use that instead of coming up with hair brain ideas on why you think its one way or the other, without "data driven facts" to back them up.  Data will always tell you whats going on in a process, unless you have "special causes" as we engineers know can be thrown in the mix.  Such as the suppressors that I explained earlier.  DATA is king not "what I've seen being in the woods two weekends out of the rutting month".  Start putting up the numbers in each study and stop talking about speculation on fawn birthing and what not!  This kind of talk without facts really grinds my gears sometimes.  Anyway, happy hunting! 


Wow am I glad you came along to save us from ourselves!

I thought D&DH was founded on the idea of the "Stumpsitters", or in other words, regular hunters who were willing to share their experiences. I did not know that I needed to have data points or pie-grafts in order to express an opinion on deer or deer hunting.

Anyway, sorry to grind your gears. [8|]


JPH,
sorry if I upset you.[;)]

I just get sick of people bantering back and forth like children about how each other's father can beat up the other.  Somebody get the facts (data from articles) and list them, that will tell the whole story, plain and simple is all.  Don't you agree?  I have no quarrels with anyone willing to share an experience, maybe I was a little harsh, but just because joe blow saw a fawn on so and so date doesn't make it golden rule!  All i'm saying is every natural object has a normal distribution in its process, find that normal distribution, whether that be affected by lunar or solar or whatever, and show that it correlates, with proven data and whalla!!!!!  Your theory is substantiated and validated.  And no, you don't need data points to reflect your opinion, but when you try to will that opinion onto others, then you better back that *%#$ up.  That's all I'm saying.


Two things here.....

First, facts, statistics and data can all be skewed in the way they`re presented to make whatever point the presenter desires. Pretty simple concept, been going on for eons.....

Second, what exactly IS fact in regards to rutting activity. Especially when two such noted people such as Alsheimer and LLR differ on the subject. Obviously, there is much hypothesis and speculation, and not a lot of "fact". So we`re left mostly with what we saw 'During our two weeks" of the month long rut. Which, by the way, rutting activity goes on for at least 3 months.

I can appreciate your engineer`s penchant for facts and data, but the reality is, in deer hunting, and in particular, concerning the rut, there just isn`t much of what we could call facts, available.
[/quote]


Yes, you are right, facts, data, and statistics can be skewed to reflect one's views.  But, if, and only if all of the data is not presented and some is left out intentionally to represent that view. 

Secondly, I was referring to the two weeks your out in the woods interpreting sign or actually hunting, not how long the rut actually is.  Read the post before you open yourself up to criticism! 

Lastly, how do you know if there is or is not a good portion of facts in the analyzation of the rut, do you study it?  If so, do tell and give me a viable answer as to how you know there is little fact to the rut, not just another sentence lacking substance!  PAAAALEASE!
[/quote]

Did you ever answer the original question?  Who's theory do you buy into, and why? 
Brad

HUNT HARD, SHOOT STRAIGHT, CLEAN KILL APOLOGIZE TO NO ONE

Image

hunter480
 
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RE: Alsheimer or Rue?

Postby hunter480 » Fri Sep 26, 2008 4:20 pm

ORIGINAL: dmcianfa

ORIGINAL: Squirrelhawker

ORIGINAL: dmcianfa

I have three words and a secret to tell everyone about this topic:

"STATISTICS NEVER LIE"

Look at the numbers associated with each of the studies by both individuals.  Although C.A. has many more data points, or samples so to speak, you can still compare them to each other or both baselines.  Just look at the statistics from a mathematical standpoint and use that instead of coming up with hair brain ideas on why you think its one way or the other, without "data driven facts" to back them up.  Data will always tell you whats going on in a process, unless you have "special causes" as we engineers know can be thrown in the mix.  Such as the suppressors that I explained earlier.  DATA is king not "what I've seen being in the woods two weekends out of the rutting month".  Start putting up the numbers in each study and stop talking about speculation on fawn birthing and what not!  This kind of talk without facts really grinds my gears sometimes.  Anyway, happy hunting! 


I almost never respond to posts like this unless I'm personally involved, but dude, you just intellectually unzipped your fly in front of a whole bunch of people who obviously know way more about this topic than you realize.

"Just look at the statistics from a mathmatical standpoint and use that instead of coming up with hair brain ideas on why you think its one way or another"
 
How old are you? I'm trying not to turn this into a personal attack but this is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen posted. We're   not trying to come up with anything. We were discussing the research and our respective opinions of, two giants in the world of deer hunting and deer research. The "speculation" of fawn birthing that you're referring to, happens to be an integral part of one of the aformentioned experts research. Or, did you miss that part? Now I know us deer hunters are not as smart as you engineer types, but from my short tenure here, I've noticed that most of us are managing to read the posts and actually comprehend what is being talked about.
Sheesh[8|]




Since your being a "you know what" I'm going to take the high road here.
It's nice that you can hide behind your computer, because if I ever had someone say this to me personally, whel, lets just say a trip to the toolshed would be in order.  Grow up, I have.  You'd probably be suprised that I'm older than you judging by your words in your last post!!!!  you made it personal with this post, don't say you don't mean to make it an attack by posting this nonsense.  That was never an intention of mine throughout and we should cease responding to each other!  I wil not reply to anything you say from here on out.  Your tenure here may be much shorter than you realize if you keep posting comments like that.

 
Again, I`m the site kerk, so........
 
Lot`s of toolsheds here in Indiana.....I`m not hiding behind my computer, you can find me easily. And I`ll say it straight to your face.
 
You again shrug off the FACT, that wild animals don`t regulate to a schedule. You tend to want to state that facts and data are the only points worth debate, but as wild animals tend to do, they don`t account for much factual data. Much of it is indeed supposition, again, as I stated before, as is the basis for the debate between two highly noted white-tail authorities such as CA and Rue.
 
Lastly, and the Moderators may certainly censure me if they so choose, but your tone and approach here is highly lacking in couth. Especially, being as new as you are here, and having developed no more relationships than you have. I would suggest you take the time to develope relationships here before you barge in like the proverbial bull in the china shop, insulting established posters here.
 
I also can always be IM`d.

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RE: Alsheimer or Rue?

Postby JPH » Fri Sep 26, 2008 5:39 pm

ORIGINAL: dmcianfa

ORIGINAL: JPH

I guess my first question is, who is trying to "will their opinion on others"? I saw this thread as an open discussion about two great deer researchers and our opinions of their work.

I would go on further to suggest that since the thread is in refrence to CA and LLR, the data that they have listed in their D&DH articles would be implied. I do not think it would be valuable for all of us to dig out our old issues and cite work that everyone is already familliar with.

IMO, your background as an Engineer is of little value when dealing with this topic. We are talking about wild animals here, not lifeless points of data. Intuition, experience and observation are each of equal or greater weight.

And lastly, don't talk down to people, at least not after 8 posts. Many of us have spent considerable time sharing ideas and opinions here. For example, Hunter480 and I disagree strongly on many topics, but we have a mutual respect. That is a respect that you have not earned.

And while we're at it. My Dad is in poor health, but in his day he could take your Dad!



JPH,

This thread is an open discussion, thats why I am posting too!!!

If your familiar with the numbers, by all means use them in this post to reflect your opinion.  That is what I'm saying.  Data never lies!  The data they gathered is not implied data, it is actual events.  CA or LLR implie their THEORIES BASED on the data, not the other way around.

I hate to break it to you, but even wild animal exhibit distribution in some manner in their habits and lifestyle.  If you can track that distribution you can then put that data into a statistical reference.  My god man!!! Pick up a book.

Finally,   Just because you post a couple times more than someone else on this forum doesn't mean your better than anyone else here.   Does that mean you see and know all, I think not?  Cmon' get over yourself, you aren't the chosen one on this server just becuase you have a few hundred posts under your belt and you think you can boss people around on this site.  Also, I don't have to earn your respect, why would you ever think that, I don't even know you????  It's a forum dude! Wow, such animosity! A familiar statement comes to mind in response to you:  "wearing that badge doesn't make you right". 

That statement about Dad's is going overboard don't you think?  I never directed my words towards you personally, only the view or topic at hand and while using constructive criticism in the process!  Your just being cruel now with superfluous insults.

 
dmcianfa, this will be the last post that I direct toward you so I want to clear a couple of things up.
 
I have no inteast in wasting my time digging up statistics that were compiled by someone else. You see, I have reached a point in my life were I do not have to pretend to be something that I am not. I am not a deer researcher. I am a deer hunter. And while I have actually read a book or two, I feel no desire to quote them for you benifit.
 
I was wrong to refer to how many posts you have when questioning your right to talk down to people. You NEVER have that right, no matter how many times you have spouted off on an internet forum. My guess is, you've pulled this type of garbage on other forums. We are not impressed or amused.
 
My remark about "my dad vs. your dad" was an attempt to lighten the tone. You had written something about our discussion being something like kids arguing about who's dad could beat up who's. I was refering to that. I in no way meant to make you feel threatened (and I really mean that).
 
However, you have told me to "back my *%#$ up" and you have threatened to take Squirrellhawker to the "tool shed". I will not engage in this type of conversation. But I can be reached via PM or the e-mail found on my profile.
 
It looks like CA won by a narrow margin. Let's move on guys.

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RE: Alsheimer or Rue?

Postby NEW61375 » Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:35 pm

ORIGINAL: hunter480

ORIGINAL: NEW61375

ORIGINAL: hunter480

[quote]ORIGINAL: NEW61375

[quote]ORIGINAL: Robert Rowland

They could both be onto something. Maybe the rut trigger is a combination of photo cycle and moon phase. Ask any paramedic and he will tell you that the moon phase causes lots of things to happen.  Maybe the photo cycle sets the mood, and the moon pulls the trigger.


I tend to agree with this but my overall opinion on the topic is very similiar to CA except for the actual dates.

I believe photperiod in the fall along with the new moon of September(when it falls late like this year 9-29-2008) or the new moon in October(when it falls early like last year 10-11 2007), are the two thing that trigger a does 30 day estrous cycle and start ratcheting up bucks testosterone levels.

The thing that isn't convincing to me about the trigger just being photoperiod is how photoperiod actually takes place.  Yes the amount of light gets shorter but we are talking about a minute or two each day, to me that doesn't seem like much of a stimulous but I do fell it helps gets the deer started.  

This is the part where I tend to agree with CA about a more significant trigger being involved and he often mentions the second full moon or the "Rutting Moon" as some call it, I feel like the new moon has a bigger effect and hel eludes to something similiar in his studies regarding third quarter chnages in deer hormones.  Some new studies have shown that the amount of melatonin produced by the pineal gland can be cut by over 50% on bright nights(before, during, and after full moon) and even though photoperiod may have started estous cycles those bright nights around the rutting moon could cause a lull or slow the pace of the cycle a little imo until a little later in the month. 

Which brings us to the new moon which is two weeks later in the month,  I believe the second new moon and the days preceding and following it(about Oct 25-Oct 31 this year) serve as the kickstart to the real action.  These nights are very dark and cause spikes in melatonin output from the pineal glands in both bucks and does which I believe triggers higher testosterone level in bucks heightening their sexual aggression and triggers a does actual "heat cycle" which is the last 7 days of her full estrous cycle which is what I was talking about earlier being cued by photoperiod and the dark nights around Septembers new moon, Sept. 29.  Ive read that only the final 1 or 2 days of those last 7 days is when the doe is receptive to breeding.   

My predictions(jmo):

The actual breeding part of the rut will be about 7 days later than the time frame of Oct 24-Nov. 5 which is a few days before Octobers late new moon and a few days after. (So roughly Nov.1 -12)  <<<  Shocking I know.Image


Your hypothesis is very interesting, but lacks any real substance. A lot of "IMO", but not much else.

Interesting though, nonetheless.


Absolutely, it is just that, my opinion.  Granted I have plenty of real woods experience and have researched extensively the pineal gland(not just in deer) and how exactly it responds to light (sun & moon) as well as plentyof moon phase theories  And base on what I've seen and read I reached my opinion.  Which is precisely what the "experts" are giving us as well, their opinions.  I know where I hunt my dates fit last year much better than the ones predicted by D & DH so I'll try it again this season with my dates and see what the results are.
[/quote]

And without a doubt, we`ll all be extremely curious as to what your personal results are. I know I speak for everyone when I say, I hope you will report back after the season.
[/quote]

I can't really tell if that is sarcasm or not and I doubt too many care about my opinion but here are some results from 07 season:

Oct 27:
Image
This deer was showing classic signs of pre-rut behavior.  He responded to a light rattling sequence(he didn't come running in though just came kind of snooping around) scraping a little and rubbing on a couple trees.

Last year the first new moon of the Autumn Equinox was Oct 11., I believe that to be a trigger for the does and bucks based on the effect those dark nights have on the deers melatonin output from the pineal gland(spikes during dark nights).  I killed the buck above 16 days later showing pre-rut signs but not real rutty(neck not too swollen, tarsals/backs of legs not black and stinking yet, and his general attitude was not very aggressive.

Now fast forward 30 days from Oct. 11 to around Nov 11 and the deer are acting much differently.  I shot the buck below shortly after that window in November and he was rutted up, stinking and running around, I shot him around 1:00 cruising down the edge of a corn field and he wasn't even thinking of feeding.(sorry for pic quality)  

Image

I think there are so many variables I try not to get hung up on exact days but rather I come up with time frames to hunt as much as possible.  This year it will probably be Oct 24 to around Nov. 4 then again between Nov. 10-20.  Realisticaly you can't go wrong with those dates most any year but hey at least I have a method to my madness[:D]. 

hunter480
 
Posts: 696
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:44 am

RE: Alsheimer or Rue?

Postby hunter480 » Sat Sep 27, 2008 2:36 am

NEW61375

 
No sarcasm intended at all NEW61375. I truly hope to hear about what you see in the field. The whole point of this exercise, I think, is to learn from each other. We all together have a lot more experience than any one of us alone, and it`s a greatly focussed group here.
 
I hope you do follow thru and report back as the season progresses and afterwards as well.

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