Legal vs Ethical

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JPH
 
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RE: Legal vs Ethical

Postby JPH » Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:18 am

ORIGINAL: Gulfcapt

Im not looking to win over hearts and minds like you, Your quick to blame me for kicking this off but you were right here typing also along with others,your the type of person that will blame someone else for something you had your hands in.. case in point.. are still following me here because i see in the past with me and others you get sidetract. I made valid points in all that i wrote. then dispicable, morally and ethicly offensive came up on apoint that webster cleared for us.. No im against the murder of preg doe especially when you can get them pre rut.. why shouldn't you be able to if their as overpopulated as you 4 has been stating



So...should I take this an an indication that you won't be providing any biblical references or specific examples of people other than yourself (and maybe Grey Haired Bow back on page 1) binging religion into the conversation?

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Gulfcapt
 
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RE: Legal vs Ethical

Postby Gulfcapt » Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:40 am

after all this discussion thats the best you got About me being able to quote a vurse in the bible! open your eyes smart one... around the world all the different religions and faiths, and different beliefs on how they decipher the bible! so what faith/religion/bible is the right one JPH you know so much about it... I don't!!! I believe in god and prey but don't go to church and give my hard earned money to someone living in a mansion, screwing the poor out their nickles SAYING GOD TOLD ME TO TELL YOU TO GIVE YOUR PAY CHECK TO THE CHURCH BECAUSE WE NEED ANOTHER ANOTHER ADDITION TO OUR ALREADY 50,000 SQUARE FT HOME. lol ya

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RE: Legal vs Ethical

Postby msbadger » Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:57 am

Well here' s another Wow moment...I'm only posting because I've noticed doing so over the past several months tends to shut a thread down.....one can only hope....

What a merry little path this has taken...I'm wondering out loud...not a ?? to any one...how it is that ppl posting a yes or no ? with their own PERSONAL opinions can't do so and receive  a yes or no answer with PERSONAL opinions attached ...WITHOUT underlying accusations and just ranker being stirred in....so someone has a different opinion than yours ...so be it....perhaps they did or didn't state it as well as you thought they should have...or you didn't quite understand the reasoning behind it...Oh I know the guise of DISCUSSION/DEBATE ....one would... I think.... might want to go back and re-read the last 4 pgs to see the spiral this thread made before invoking that response....I actually do a lot of shaking my head and wowing on this forum..so what and who cares really...no one should, I suppose...there are always some one around that can suck a person into sarcasm and ranker...been there done that, didn't really like it...everyone ones different...gosh let it go

As for My opinion...Well I never read that article ..too busy...Ted Nugant..care less...some ppl need scape goats to feel better ..we've all done that...I assume....hunting pregnant doe...Well I prefer not to....opening up an animal and yanking out a partially developed fetus...just makes me un easy...tho I'm not blind to the fact that the doe I shot this year ...probably were carrying the cell clusters of fawn...It's a visual thing I suppose...but killing any animal makes me a tad uneasy...as well as the Harvesting of them does [:)]..for I harvest deer on my property...yep I plant to feed them....build to water and bed them and for me I harvest their meat to feed us.....Oh so much more to say but I learned ...a wonderful thing... for me...to walk away 

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JPH
 
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RE: Legal vs Ethical

Postby JPH » Sat Dec 18, 2010 12:12 pm

ORIGINAL: Gulfcapt

after all this discussion thats the best you got [color="#ff0000"]About me being able to quote a vurse in the bible![/color] open your eyes smart one... [color="#ff0000"]around the world all the different religions and faiths, and different beliefs on how they decipher the bible![/color] so what faith/religion/bible is the right one JPH [color="#ff0000"]you know so much about it... I don't!!! [/color]I believe in god and prey but don't go to church and give my hard earned money to someone living in a mansion, screwing the poor out their nickles SAYING GOD TOLD ME TO TELL YOU TO GIVE YOUR PAY CHECK TO THE CHURCH BECAUSE WE NEED ANOTHER ANOTHER ADDITION TO OUR ALREADY 50,000 SQUARE FT HOME. lol ya


Well with that in mind, (vital areas highlighted in red) this remark you posted, "[color="#ccff00"][color="#ff0000"]Come to think of it afew on this forum this way, they will preach the bible to you, but will kill something that hasn't got a chance to live yet..[/color] [/color][s.i.c.]", might have been a mistake.

My point is, using a person's faith against them when you have no real understanding of it is a bad idea. Let's keep it above the belt, avoid name calling and keep people's religion out of it from now on.

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Gulfcapt
 
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RE: Legal vs Ethical

Postby Gulfcapt » Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:18 pm

Steve Im commenting on a (equivocation) who am I decieving here? you commented on if your christain a fetus of a child is not equated of thats of a unborn animal... Did you know in the real world you kill a protected species thats preg you could be held accountable on different counts for whats in her stomach in a court of law? Because if you did that comment wouldn't have come up! but I guess its different in the christain world not the real world.. so I guess its closer then you think.

Im a simple person that has learned alot from people in this forum I have posted things that others have shed new light on the suject that got me to rethink my thinking on matters.. but like you said it will not be resolved here thats a give me...







ORIGINAL: Gu
Its in your religion to kill unborn things then? As long as a man behind a desk makes a law to ok it? Then by all means no one should object to a abortion then either right?

No, that doesn't follow. With all due respect to you, you're committing the logical fallacy called equivocation here. Hinduism may equate the value of a human being with the value of an animal (actually, it could be argued that Hinduism places a higher value on animals), but Christianity and most other religions do not. Therefore, the value of a human fetus is not equated to the value of an unborn animal.

Besides that, we kill pregnant animals all the time for many reasons. Here's one -- if I catch a mouse in my mousetrap, I consider it a very good thing if that mouse is female and pregnant. Even if I feel badly about it, I consider it a good thing.

ORIGINAL: Gulfcapt

BTW IF A PERSON CALLS HIMSELF RELIGOUS ETHICS SHOULD FOLLOW RIGHT BEHIND.

That is absolutely correct. Most of us would agree that a religion is worthless if it doesn't teach ethical behavior. There should be a connection between the ethical stance of a religious person and his religious views. However, I don't how a teaching against the killing of a pregnant animal can be drawn from the Christian's ethical sourcebook, the Bible.

ORIGINAL: Gulfcapt

Everyone has danced around this subject YES or NO

Answer The simple ???? IS IT ETHICAL TO KILL A PREG DOE OR ANIMAL FOR THAT MATTER, AND DON'T USE THE LAW TO JUSTIFY IT BECAUSE A 5 YEAR OLD KID ON THE STREET KNOWS RIGHT FROM WRONG WHEN IT COMES TO THIS SUBJECT!!!lololololol

Highlander your preaching to the choir here, and its still killing of a unborn no matter how you look at it.. But I know your trying to make a point like I am...

JPH When in church walk up to the podium and ask this simple ?? to your congregation "Is it ethical to kill a preg doe", and only that ???????. See what replies might follow, or try it with people you don't know lolol

If you have the good lords phone # to prove me wrong JPH please by all means call him so I could be set in place here! because if you show me where it says you can kill a preg anything in your bible its time for me to go to the darker side

In answer to the first question -- No dancing. Everyone seems to have expressed himself or herself pretty clearly.

Second question -- it's definitely not clear that the view of a 5-year old kid on the street has any bearing on this subject. Despite the innocence of a child, a child's moral sense is not superior to anyone else's.

In general, this conversation illustrates two things:
(1.) that ethics cannot be based on personal opinion or strong feelings.
(2.) that the debate over "legal vs. ethical" will not be resolved on an Internet discussion board.

Steve
[/quote]

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Gulfcapt
 
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RE: Legal vs Ethical

Postby Gulfcapt » Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:33 pm

I read a article awhile back about a person by the name of John Ozoga I believe he works or had worked for D&DH that brought up some interesting points on shooting fawns.. not that I would do that either but made some sence. he pointed out that % of fawns that don't make it through winters, so your better off getting them out of the herd and leaving the mature does, but was also critisied by some biologist, and hunters for it.

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Patriot
 
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RE: Legal vs Ethical

Postby Patriot » Sat Dec 18, 2010 10:36 pm

Wow folks......that's all I have to say.[&:]
Paul K. "aim small, miss small"
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charlie 01
 
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RE: Legal vs Ethical

Postby charlie 01 » Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:25 am

Don't see what the diff. is if taking a doe before or after being bred. It's still herd control one way or another. Besides, who is to say if infact it is pregnant. Could be she did not concieve. Could be a dry doe.
 
My problem is taking more does in itself. The states base their decisions on over population with the anticipation of the upcomming fawn crop in certain areas. But, I don't think anyone is taking into consideration, our growing coyote problem, and the fact that they take a certain amount newborn fawns. In past years, coyotes were not as much a problem as they are now, and did not fit in the equation of deer control. I think that is starting to change, in some areas more than others, but changing rather quickly. I think now days more fawns are taken than we realize. In one of the areas I hunt, for the entire 2009 season, never saw a fawn. Trailcam for the entire season, nun. Other hunters that hunt the same farm, nothing. The 2010 season brought the same dissapointment. Only one button buck and a reduced amount of group does. Last Wed. with the snow on the ground for a few days took a walk in part of the area, and more coyote tracks than deer tracks. Very disheartening. Can't remember all the posts that I've read in this forum complaining about coyotes. What goes on around us that we don't hear of? If you think it is bad in some areas now, wait till next year after all those females have their pups. Granted, I believe some areas are in need of deer control, but not state wide. Closer counts should be taken. And if a certain amount of does are removed, and the fawn crop has some devastation, then where are we going with these programs? I remember In Mich. in the 1960's gun hunting as a boy. Bucks were all you could shoot. If they had an over population, the state would issue doe permits but for the county the problem was in, and that county only. I think we need cloeser control, if need be county by county.
 
It's not quite the same, but close to it. My parents once told me that in Mich. in the 1930's, the state had a huge problem with fox. The fox were so over populated and devastating the small game populations that the state offered a $5.00 per fox. You can imagine how desperate the state was. Five dollars was a lot of money in those days. My folks took advantage and hunted and trapped as many as they could. I think he told me, at one time he had as many as 20 fox hounds. I sometimes wonder how far away we are with coyotes. I forsee a big problem to come.   
   


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JPH
 
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RE: Legal vs Ethical

Postby JPH » Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:58 am

ORIGINAL: charlie 01

Granted, I believe some areas are in need of deer control, but not state wide. Closer counts should be taken.


Now that I agree with! I hunt several small properties spread over two states and I find the doe situation to be different on each one.

Missouri allows unlimited doe harvest over the vast majority of the state. I keep reading that drastic herd reduction is still needed but I am starting to see very few deer on my property in northern Harrison County.

At least Iowa sells antlerless tags by county. Each county has a quota and a hunter can keep buying them until they are sold out. But even that has its problems. Sometimes the population can be vastly different when on opposite sides of the same county.

I guess this is where the legal vs ethical thing comes in. I hunt some places where it is not only ethical but morally imperative to kill does, and a lot of them. On the other hand, I hunt properties where it is legal to kill unlimited does but I feel it would be unethical for me to kill more than one, if any.

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RE: Legal vs Ethical

Postby msbadger » Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:17 pm

This is a simple ? I posing....in the areas that it is imperative to kill as many doe as possible.....Hunter hunter "A" kills all the doe they possibly can...tags provided...then with in a square mile area surrounding  Hunter "A" All the hunters Kill all the doe they can ..tags available....The predator population then explodes...with all the fresh gut piles in the area...come spring  birthing time ...predators are still in the area.....how many hunting seasons does anyone think it would take to devastate the deer herd in that and the surrounding ..say five mile area? 

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