Legal vs Ethical

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Highlander Archery
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RE: Legal vs Ethical

Postby Highlander Archery » Sun Dec 19, 2010 12:28 pm

Hence the need to kill predators as well as the doe. Predator hunters play a vital role in maintaining healthy populations of not only deer, but small game, fowl, and fur bearers.

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RE: Legal vs Ethical

Postby JPH » Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:28 pm

ORIGINAL: msbadger

This is a simple ? I the areas that it is imperative to kill as many doe as possible.....Hunter hunter "A" kills all the doe they possibly can...tags provided...then with in a square mile area surrounding  Hunter "A" All the hunters Kill all the doe they can ..tags available....The predator population then explodes...with all the fresh gut piles in the area...come spring  birthing time ...predators are still in the many hunting seasons does anyone think it would take to devastate the deer herd in that and the surrounding ..say five mile area? 

I don't think that is a simple question at all. For one thing it depends on the deer population going in to this aggressive doe harvest. Secondly, once aggressive doe hunting begins, does become very hard to kill. Also, I don't think it is accurate to suggest that the increased availability of gut piles is going to cause a coyote population explosion. Coyotes in overpopulated areas ahe plenty of road kill to feed on without gut piles. Furthermore, fawn survival may well be more heavily influenced by habitat than the coyote population. An area with an overpopulated herd can be reduced to a barren open landscape by over browsing and a small predator population might easily make short work of the fawn crop. We still have yet to address weather, motor vehicles, logging and farming practices.

This stuff is a lot more complex than a lot of people give it credit for. I think the ethical thing for a hunter to do is to be a constant student of conservation and be open to adjusting his/her hunting accordingly.

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RE: Legal vs Ethical

Postby Gulfcapt » Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:02 pm

you take a area that has no check-ins for hunters (public areas) and allow a free for all to harvest does( doe day/wk) you have a reciepe for disaster, have no idea how many people is hunting it for one! nor do they know what is coming out of that area as of deer for 2! and don't have a clue as what kind of deer population that area has to start with for 3! But will pass out doe tags like candy to every tom dick and harry that has the cash, and lets not forget about the people that sneak them out just to beable to use that doe tag on another doe, and if this area already has a bad buck to doe ratio then the following year is even worse! the figure on a fawn making it through its first northern winter stand at this 30-40% will not make it through a harsh winter! and if its born late then the % go's up because it didn't get to pack on its winter fat whitch should be around 25- 35 %.. then preditors.. You lose more deer then people realize.. It will start showing mark my words on this

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RE: Legal vs Ethical

Postby msbadger » Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:39 pm

Your correct's not a simple ? in any form.... other than to be thought provoking and not taken as some sort of negative comment towards anyone...

Now...the above statements (both) would be true in a perfect world ...but alas it is not....and there are not as many preditor hunters as there once were...add to that the very common discussion where statements of yote hunting causes an increase in yote populations....I would think is may put a damper on ppl hunting them on there managed lands....Now it may be differant across the country but I know for a fact that in the isolated area of our camp where there is little traffic and no farming ...hunting has brought the yotes in and the turkey ...squirrel....deer...steep terrain with very deep snows ect.... have kept them at home ...Well yes road kills added to the mix year round..... for budget cuts have hampered road pick ups...lets not forget the wonderful family dog....for more than once I've had incounters and made calls to the DEC about domestic dogs on both adult and fawn deer....winter in NY is a rough time for deer on all fronts...In this perfect world  a true steward of wildlife.... taking out all those doe.... would know what the ppl around them were doing....realize that perhaps some of this "over browsed" under story may be a result of a lack of logging management....but in the real world of little communication amongst neighbors and chopped up 5-100 acer parcels....Well ?.....See logging flows with the prices....just as WW said...constructions down ....timber prices are down...ppl who have the funds to have good sized tracts of land in most cases have the the ability to hold out for a better market and usually do....ask any farmer with wood lots...Just walk through an old growth forest...we call them English forrests....wonderful huge old trees ...deep shade and little wild life sightings amongst mossy trails and fern and violet covered under story...deer don't produce that...a lack of sun does....I suppose I can sum up my personal opinion with this.....a fistful of doe tags in the hands of the wrong ppl is a very dangerous thing...
Do I think most hunters out there are wildlife I don't unfortunately  many ppl find life more expedient believing everything they read then regurgitating it.... instead of exploring for them it moral or ethical...?...I can't even ponder those ?'s for I can't put myself in the lofty position to just   is..... 

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charlie 01
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RE: Legal vs Ethical

Postby charlie 01 » Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:22 am

 fawn survival may well be more heavily influenced by habitat than the coyote population.
JPH. Don't agree with you on this, not in my area for sure. The habitat in the area I mentioned is second to nun. couldn't ask for better. Thats why the coyotes proliferate so well. Thick brush with sparse deer trails going through it, and some trails that I cut. In thick brushy areas, if one cuts trails in it, the deer will use them, more so of the bigger mature bucks. They get tired of trying to get through thick stuff with their large racks. In one way this habitat is good for the deer, but it's also good for the coyotes. You can't get to them. Twenty ft. and they're out of sight. Shot at one this evening, but missed it. Think I rushed the shot, knowing that they don't give you much of a shot chance. They are much more flighty than a deer. They don't stand around much, always moving. Shot 4 so far in this area, but apparently not enough. I have seen as many as 6 traveling in a pack in daylight. Anyway, we have great habitat with no fawns. Apparently you must not have a problem with them by you. At least I don't recall you saying so. If so you are lucky. You may be in an area that people hunt them thru the winter. I've read, some people are really into coyote hunting. What I can't figure, is the fact that most does, when ready to drop their fawns will leave their core area for an isolated area to do so. Even crossing main roads to do so.
Gulfcapt, I don't know if you saw this pic I posted in another thread. But here it is. Nature takes care of it's own. This pic was taken in March. It was loosing it's winter coat. I used to see it often while shed hunting. When he or she had it's full coat, it looked almost black. Anyway much darker than the rest of the deer.
Yes, most public areas around me do not keep positive records of harvests. They usually have a sign in and out sheet (no attendant) that you are suppose note what you shot. How many hunters list what they did shoot is questionable. Some forget in the excitment, Some do not want others to know it's a good area etc.   

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RE: Legal vs Ethical

Postby DoeEyed » Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:41 am

Yes, most public areas around me do not keep positive records of harvests. They usually have a sign in and out sheet (no attendant) that you are suppose note what you shot. How many hunters list what they did shoot is questionable. Some forget in the excitment, Some do not want others to know it's a good area etc.

This is why I like the registration stations in Wisconsin. You have to bring your deer in, fill out an info sheet with your name, county, dmu, date and what type deer you shot. An attendant has to check the deer and put a metal band on it which verifies registration. The only problem I have is that nubbys are considered antlerless so people will write "antlerless" on the sheet sometimes rather than "nubby" or "doe".  But for the most part people are specific.
All I have seen teaches me to trust the Creator for all I have not seen ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

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RE: Legal vs Ethical

Postby Gulfcapt » Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:53 am

Charlie 01 no I didn't get a chance to see that Pic, but Like the rest of them you post I enjoy looking at them, especially the oldschool pics.. The does you speak of that drop fawns do leave their core areas to isolate themselves from the rest of the deer herd, but once that fawn is born she will also move again after she cleans her fawn up from all the blood and afterbirth the reason for this is predators attracted to the scent that still lies on the ground from the so called afterbirth. she will run decoy for any predators that usually get close to lure them away from her fawns while at that vulnerable age

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RE: Legal vs Ethical

Postby JPH » Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:26 am

ORIGINAL: charlie 01
Apparently you must not have a problem with (coyotes) by you. At least I don't recall you saying so. If so you are lucky.

I see coyotes on about half of my hunting outings. I've seen them chase deer year round and I had them beat me to a doe last year and take a considerable amount of meat. I don't know if I'd call this a "problem" or just nature. Some people hunt and trap them but not to a big extent. I try to take coyotes when I can, if I have someone who will use the pelts. I'd love to hunt them over a call in the winter, but I haven't yet.

Do they kill some deer? No doubt about it. Should they be hunted and trapped to find balance? Yes. I just do not think that where I live and hunt, that coyotes are a major influence on deer populations.

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RE: Legal vs Ethical

Postby Beaglerunner1 » Mon Dec 20, 2010 8:27 am

Wow! What a discussion. I haven't been on in a while, but thought I'd add a few things. First, Ted Nugent. As far as I'm concerned, some things he says I agree with and some I don't. Second, killing does that are pregnant. While I won't kill a doe that has a young one(s) with her in the early part of the season, I don't see a problem with killing does after the rut. Now on the original subject, ethics! While I dont see religion and ethics tied together completly, they do have a bearing together. I was taught that ethics are a direct line to the way a person is brought up! If your taught to hunt by someone who constantly breaks the law and has no morals, then most often, thats the way your gonna be. I know this is not always the case (theres always exceptions). Ive always said that whats ethical for me might not work for the next person. I live in NC where they legalized crossbows and hunting on sundays during the bow season on private land. I utilized both this season, and plan to keep on. I dont see either as unethical. Just like I run deer dogs, rabbit hunt with dogs, and coon hunt. I don't see any of that as unethical. I know some will disagree, but thats ok. Everyone has their own standards. I don't trespass, I try my best to recover every animal shot, and I use everything that I kill. Thats how I was taught and thats what I'm teaching my kids.
Nothin runs like a deer... except a walker!!

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RE: Legal vs Ethical

Postby eagle1953 » Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:07 am

Gulf capt, can`t figure that one out myself. Bow season is from October 29 to Febuary 6, then we have a 7 day gun season November 29 - Dec. 5 then a 2 day gun Dec. 18-19 Muzzle loader was moved from after christmas to Jan. 8-11. We do have an early muzzleloader season in southern Ohio Oct. 18-23 you would think we would have a longer gun season. Don`t know why only one buck kind of dumb I think, but it is Ohio. I`m from Arkansas but have lived here since 95. DNR had a survey back in the spring to see about 2 more gun days.
ORIGINAL: Gulfcapt

Hello eagle.

Ive hunted Ohio twice on a friends farm, He had told me the same thing TO MANY deer.
If that was the case why is it that Ohio only has a total of 11 days general gun, 9 days muzz. you would think they would open gun alittle longer to take care of the overpopulation. Now they have along archery season 4-1/4 months I think it was, and on top of that why only 1 buck then? If a area is over run with deer open the season strickly for that one animal earlier, and allow hunters to harvest only does then, not while they are breeding and pregnant, Im sure they would find alot of hunters willing to ride that horse..
I don`t kill innocet animals, just the ones that look guilty.


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