30-06 for short range shots?

Talk about the best guns and ammunition for deer hunting!
User avatar
shadow
 
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:50 pm

30-06 for short range shots?

Postby shadow » Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:22 am

Most of my shots in the woods are under 50 yards. They are usually bow range shots 15-40 yards nothing really any farther. I presently split my gun hunting time between my Remington 7400, and my Remington 870, using slugs.
 
I'm wondering that on shots in this range using the 30-06 will the bullet perform as it should (open up and mushroom)? or is it to short of a distance and will the bullet pass right through without causing any significant damage?
 
The reason I ask this is, shooting 2 deer in the past with my rifle using 165 grain Remington bullet heads that I reloaded seemed to not do the job with the first shot. Last year the second deer I killed was a 40 yard shot to the heart lung area and it went right down, it seemed to struggle and want to get up and for fear of loosing it I put another shot into him and he stayed down.
A couple years ago I lost a deer that I shot with the same gun. I was in my climber on opening day of rifle season, two nice does came through, and one offered me a nice 30 yard shot. I don't know if the shot was rushed or what but after finding her in the crosshairs I pulled the trigger and she also went right down. After 30 seconds or so she was getting to her feet so I then quickly put another shot into her, she slowly got up and ran off.
I gave her an hour, shooting her twice with a rifle I felt thats all that was needed, I was wrong. I went over to trail her and there was good blood at the shot sight as well as a slight blood trail which I followed for about 20 yards then I saw her, she also saw me. She jumped up and quickly ran off! I then gave her about 3 hours and searched every inch of my property as well as the surrounding property.. along a small river, a couple of ponds etc...for the rest of that day and the next. I never found her.
So can it be the distance?
 
With all the deer you may have taken there holds in your memory a special place i'm sure for each one you killed.

User avatar
nhdeerchaser
 
Posts: 429
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:01 am

RE: 30-06 for short range shots?

Postby nhdeerchaser » Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:39 am

I use a .30-06 and also shoot 165 grain bullets.
I thought I ran into a similar problem as you last year. Upon further review, and spending time in my stand this year, I am almost certain my bullet hit some branches before hitting the deer, and I shanked one.
I don't know how much a bullet is impacted at such short ranges. Your story is disturbing, in that you hit a doe hard with 2 shots that close, yet still lost her.
This is a great question for shaman who takes deer at those ranges with great success with a .30-06.

Mike
You can't kill'em sittin' on the couch!

User avatar
Everyday Hunter
 
Posts: 1630
Joined: Wed Jan 21, 2009 7:12 am

RE: 30-06 for short range shots?

Postby Everyday Hunter » Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:39 am

I can't give you a definitive answer, but I've never heard of bullets failing because they were going too fast, although I have heard of bullets failing because they were going too slow.

My opinion, which I know is shared by many others, is that a high-powered bullet like a .30-06 or .308 will shed only a fraction of its energy into a deer before passing through, while bullets from smaller cartridges (.30-30, 7mm-08, .257) will shed most of their energy inside the deer.

I don't think you're too close for the bullet to fail, but if all your shots are that close, you might try getting some experience with a lighter caliber. Hope that helps.

Steve
When the Everyday Hunter isn't hunting, he's thinking about hunting, talking about hunting, dreaming about hunting, writing about hunting, or wishing he were hunting.
Image

User avatar
nhdeerchaser
 
Posts: 429
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:01 am

RE: 30-06 for short range shots?

Postby nhdeerchaser » Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:45 am

ORIGINAL: Everyday Hunter

I can't give you a definitive answer, but I've never heard of bullets failing because they were going too fast, although I have heard of bullets failing because they were going too slow.

My opinion, which I know is shared by many others, is that a high-powered bullet like a .30-06 or .308 will shed only a fraction of its energy into a deer before passing through, while bullets from smaller cartridges (.30-30, 7mm-08, .257) will shed most of their energy inside the deer.

I don't think you're too close for the bullet to fail, but if all your shots are that close, you might try getting some experience with a lighter caliber. Hope that helps.

Steve

Better explination than I gave Steve. Nice way of explaining it.

Mike
You can't kill'em sittin' on the couch!

Dan Salmon
 
Posts: 615
Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 7:52 am

RE: 30-06 for short range shots?

Postby Dan Salmon » Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:38 pm

I think it depends more on the bullet than anything else.

I've seen plenty of bullets come apart into small pieces at very close distances and high speeds, less so with slow speeds. There is less of a chance that a bullet at a slower speed will fail, most notably cup and core bullets like those loaded in standard factory ammo.

I would say at those ranges you need to err on the side of caution and use heavy for caliber bullets. I've been using a .30-06 at the same ranges you speak of with 180 grain factory ammo and have yet to chase a deer.

User avatar
shaman
 
Posts: 2441
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:38 am

RE: 30-06 for short range shots?

Postby shaman » Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:01 pm

Generally, if you like a 30-06 at 200 yards, you're going to LOVE it at 10 yards.  I've seen deer's insides explode from a shot at extremely close range.  One deer that my son shot a little too far back was completely eviscerated, and there was nothing left in the abdominal or thoracic cavity to clean out.

I shoot 165 grainers exclusively-- nowadays Hornady SP, but Core lokt is similar.  Rem factory stuff will put them down perfectly. If you're reloading with Core-lokts, you should not have a problem. If a bullet like the Core-lokt or a Interlock is sent into a deer too energetically, what you would get is over-expansion not under expansion.  Your question would indicate you suspect latter. 

There is never going to be a situation where the bullet passes through the deer too quickly to expand.  When it's going too fast what  you will get is the bullet fragmenting or exploding, but at 30-06 levels and cup-and-core bullets, this should not be a problem. Pencilling (under-expansion) happens when the bullet is too strong for proper expansion at a given velocity-- that's why FMJ works the way it does. I've pumped a lot of 165 grainers, 180 grainers and 150 grain cup and cores into deer out of 30-06 and 308 WIN.  Sometimes the shots weren't exactly according to Hoyle, but they always were fatal if they ended up in the thoracic cavity; the interiors of the deer look like they've gone through a food processor. Even at 10 feet, you get proper expansion. The rib fragments alone can do fatal damage to organs.

When deer go down like they've been pole-axed, and then get up and run away, the problem is usually a grazing shot off the top of the spine that briefly interrupts the nervous system.  It paralyzes them and then the effect wears off and they recover and run. I've witnessed this twice, but never when I was the one pulling the trigger.  However, there's usually no blood trail either.

Based on what you stated:

1)  I would suspect you might have  been shooting a bullet that was too strong. There are some out there that are this way.  If this was a standard Rem Core-Lokt, then this is not the case.
2)  I would suspect a problem with the point of impact.  If the rifle was shooting somewhere besides where you thought you were aiming, you might have his a spot that stunned them briefly. 

. . . but then again, I've HAVE had one instance with the 7600 in  35 Whelen where I put three into the boiler room at 80 yards and the deer just stood there looking at me. It spooked me.  The first two went in through the same hole and made a massive exit wound.  I moved the point of aim 2 inches towards the back and pulled off a third shot.  The deer teetered and fell.  I was already on my way down out of the stand when the deer got back up.  I racked in a 4th round, but the buck finally succumbed, before I could get it off.  The devastation from those three rounds was . . .well, it Whelenized the buck. That's all I can say.  Strange things happen in the woods. 

Also: My son eviscerated that buck I mentioned on the second shot.  The first one he pulled off was dead-on pulping the heart and lung.  The deer just stood there and stared at him.  I suggested he put a second round into him.  THAT was the round that opened up the flood of innards-- deer still managed to run 60 yards with no organs.

If you don't mind, please share the load with us?  Powder? Bullet? 

Bottom line:  There is a basic rule of thumb that says there is no  such thing as bullet failure if the deer is dead.  There is also no reason to suspect bullet failure if the deer is never recovered.  The USUAL answer is that the shot was misplaced, or the bullet was interrupted by some intervening brush.  However, my 28 seasons of experience have shown me that anything is possible.
Genesis 9:2-4 Ministries of SW Bracken County, KY
Confessions of a Cervid Serial Killer
Image

User avatar
shadow
 
Posts: 506
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:50 pm

RE: 30-06 for short range shots?

Postby shadow » Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:39 pm

shaman, the load I had been using which gives me very good accuracy was 48.0 grains of 3031 with large rifle primers and Remington 165 grain core-lokt psp's. According to my manual, it is the highest amount of 3031 I can use for this bullet and its says that the f.p.s. is right around 2,800.

I know that the first shot on the deer I lost was in the heart/lung area... I'm not that bad of a shot at 30 yards... I practice with this load only out to 100 yards but can easily make good hits on objects at that distance. As far as I can remember I was aiming in the kill area. As for the second shot, that one was rushed, who knows where it went.

And as far as last years deer shot with this load, it did look like it was gonna get up.
Neither while field dressing or while butchering did I find either bullet.
With all the deer you may have taken there holds in your memory a special place i'm sure for each one you killed.

User avatar
shaman
 
Posts: 2441
Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:38 am

RE: 30-06 for short range shots?

Postby shaman » Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:49 am

In that case, I say it's that goofy third option.  Everyone wants "DRT"  "Bang-Flop"  "Pole-Ax" . . . whatever.  What I have observed has been that about 1 in 5 deer that get their organs exploded don't understand they're dead. 

30-06 with any bullet short of FMJ at a range inside 50 yards is going to make jello surprise out of anything it touches in the thoracic cavity.  The only remedy for this condition I'll call "Failure to Recognize Oblivion" (FRO) has been a second shot, and if necessary a third.   I've now witnessed 3  FRO experiences.  

1)  Doe took 3 30-30 150 grain at inside 15 yards and continued eating
2)  Buck took 3 35 Whelen at 80 yards and remained standing and defiant
3)  Button buck took 1 30-06, and remained standing  to take a second shot.

My suggested solution to this situation was in FRO case #2.  I shot twice to the same spot.   I saw what I thought was a bullet hole appear in the deer's side, but I could not be sure.  I fired again and hit basically the same spot. I saw only one spot.  I was wondering if I was actually hitting the deer.  I adjusted and put the third exactly 2  inches behind the first.  This brought him down.  My theory was this:

1)  If I DID hit him twice through the same hole, there's nothing on the other side of that hole anymore.
2)  If I DID NOT hit him, then I won't see the second hole appear on the third shot.
3)  If the bullet DID hit him on the first shot and the second, Hitting him in a slightly new spot in the kill zone should do some more damage.

The only mistake that I saw was trying to put that second shot into the same place.  Basically all I was shooting through was air at that point.  In the future I'd opt for a shoulder shot for shot #2.  It's rare though that deer stay broadside for a second shot.  Usually you get a head-on or quartering-towards presentation as they turn to see what made the big noise.  With a 30-06 at close range, I'd try to angle it  to make the exit wound on the front side of the diaphragm.

Mind you in FRO #2, if that buck had somehow run off, I would have assumed a) the scope had been knocked off zero b)  a limb had intervened.    After the necropsy, I switched bullets (from a Corelokt PSPCL to the SPCL)  and never saw this happen again.    Was it the bullet?   I dunno. The thoracic cavity on that buck looked like cottage cheese in tomato sauce. There were bits of lung on the bushes.  However, I just couldn't bear to go through THAT again.  I switched to round-nosed.

One last hint:  Your load sounds perfect.  However, if you're normally shooting at deer inside 200 yards, you can knock about 5% off that load and still be devastating.  The cost in powder will be less, the recoil will be much less, and you will have longer life on your brass.  It may also make the round group a little tighter.  I shoot my 165 grainers at a leisurely 2700 fps.  Yes, they're a little poopy, but I'm hard pressed to find a situation where I can see a deer beyond 200 yards, let alone shoot one.
Genesis 9:2-4 Ministries of SW Bracken County, KY
Confessions of a Cervid Serial Killer
Image

Vikinghater
 
Posts: 100
Joined: Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:43 am

RE: 30-06 for short range shots?

Postby Vikinghater » Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:23 am

I have only seen one deer not drop in it's tracks at close range,  he was however in a crouched "death run" and slammed into a fence and now follow up shot was taken. 
 
 My last buck, I jump shot him and I knew he was there so I was ready,  He exploded, and I mean EXPLODED out of his bed, running broadside to quartering away.  Put a quick one into the chest at 30 feet  and hit the oppisite shoulder. He dropped instantly and was dead when I walked up to him.  When I opened him up everything was mush or tomato sauce cottage cheese as shamann describes it!!    That was a 30/06 with remington 150 gr psp core-lokts

jdsbuckfever
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:29 pm

RE: 30-06 for short range shots?

Postby jdsbuckfever » Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:57 am

my father and i both use a 30-06 with a 150 grain bullet. it have no problems with short distances. must of are shots are well within 80 yards.

Next

Return to Guns and Ammo

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests