So you want a new Deer Rifle, huh?

[Mlong84]

Shaman! How does your .35 Whelen perform on deer? I have yet to kill a deer with either of mine but have killed one massive feral hog with it. I currently use the 200 gr Remington Core Lokts in my Remington 700 but have pondered on the 250 gr Core Lokts for my Ruger M77 Hawkeye. What is your opinion on these bullets and bullet weights?

[mightyfofaad]

ORIGINAL: Mlong84

Shaman! How does your .35 Whelen perform on deer? I have yet to kill a deer with either of mine but have killed one massive feral hog with it. I currently use the 200 gr Remington Core Lokts in my Remington 700 but have pondered on the 250 gr Core Lokts for my Ruger M77 Hawkeye. What is your opinion on these bullets and bullet weights?

[:o].35 Whelen on deer ... The Shaman only uses his Whelen on deer when he's too lazy to skin & gut them. [:D]

[MI Hunter]

ORIGINAL: shaman
While I'm on this, have a look at the 358 WIN. It is what you get if you go to the other end of the spectrum from the .243 WIN.   It's what you can do with a .308 WIN case stretched in the other direction.  Where the .243 necks it down to take a 6mm bullet.  The .358 WIN stretches the case to take a .358 bullet (same as a .357 magnum pistol or a 350 Rem Mag)   Look at what that buys you versus what it costs.  The .243 WIN is a light round that will double as a varmint load.  The .358 WIN is a deep woods deer killer, the 35 REM on steroids, and is not under-powered even for elk or bear.  It has lots more retained energy, but it sacrifices flatness.   Instead of a deer/varmint load you have a deer/bear sort of thing going on.  By the way, I load my one rifle in 35 Whelen to mimic the .358 WIN-- it's an awesome deer killer too.

Now yer talkin'.  IMO, the 358 Win is a very underrated round, and much more than a woods rifle.  For most ranges a majority of hunters shoot, I think it's more than adequate and IMO, it's a solid 2-300 yard gun.  I wouldn't mind a Whelen either myself but I've been giving some thought to a 9.3 x 62 Mauser. 

[buckfarmdude]

Well done, shaman.
You better be careful because Dan Schmidt is gonna start chasing you around trying to get you to be a regular contributor or something!! 

[sixgun44]

[;)]  Okay this is an interesting topic.  Most posts seem to focus on the cartridge aspect of things with little mention of a rifle's action as a factor of the decision making process.  Bolt actions seem to be very popular these days, while lever actions certainly have a large following also. Semi-automatics and pumps are less popular but still show up in many deer camps.  My first "deer" gun was Marlin lever action in 30-30 bought at the local hardware store.  It was great rifle at a great price.  Many a deer in the Missouri woods were killed with it.  It was light and pointed naturally.  I am not sure but I think more deer have been killed with the 30-30 than any other cartridge.  And those rifles shooting that 30-30 cartridge were lever guns.  [;)]
 
 
 

[shaman]

I would talk about the 358 WIN , the 35 Whelen and the 350 rem Magnum in roughly the same terms.  They aren't exactly the same, but with normal deer sized game and normal deer ranges, you can use them in roughly the same manner.  The 358 WIN is going to drop off a little sooner than the other two.

Honestly they are overkill, but then so is the 30-06.  On the other hand overkill is a wonderful thing, and as long as your shoulder doesn't mind, I'm sure the deer won't. 

I too shoot the 200 grain Rem Core Lokt SPCL (the rounded nose).  I deliberately download all my deer cartridges (except 30-30) .  The 200 grain bullet coming out of the Rem 7600 is set to travel about 2" high at 100 yards and is meant to hit deer on the far end of my my longest food plots about 200 yards long.  Knocking 5-8% off the max and shooting H4895 powder gives me a nice gentle thump that's not too much more than a full-house 30-06.  

My impressions of the 35 Whelen and "Whelenizing" a whitetail are . . . Look, I don't know exactly what I was expecting, but honestly the deer don't get any deader than my 06-izing them.  A pole ax is a pole ax  is a pole ax.  Frankly, I don't have any grizzly bears or moose or. . . well, I occasionally have and elk, but they've changed the rules now and I can't hunt elk on the property anymore without a special tag.  I can't tell you how much deader it would make these species, nor have I been able to wangle a 400 yard shot.  The numbers are impressive, however.  If you are in the habit of taking deer at 300 yards, look at the retained energy of a full-house 250 grain load.  You will be astonished.

. . . and that's just it.  I'm in Kentucky.  My deer are creatures that like to poke their heads out around cedar trees at 50 yards.    This was just a interesting rifle and and interesting round.  If you're looking for a new rifle for bear, elk, moose and stuff with "MAGNUM" in the name make your shoulder whine , this is a wonderful choice with a wonderful history.

I've been on the road all day, taking care of business.  I'm just throwing this up  for starters.  I'll be back tomorrow with more, and I promise to do a little digging so I can give you more specifics.

[shaman]

Bummer!

I went to www.35cal.com today.  It's a great resource for info on a bunch of 35 caliber cartridges. . . or was.  Sadly it's down.  I think I know where I can find out what's happened.  In the meantime, here's the site as it stood last year in the Wayback Machine

http://web.archive.org/web/200805070505 ... index.html


There is a wealth of information there, not about just the basics like 35 Wheln, but also some obscure ones.

I had some advanced optimization tools available to me at work a number of years ago, and I tried to feed in load data from Hornady for all deer-related cartridges and try and find the best bang for the least recoil.  A slightly downloaded 200 grain bullet out of a 35 Whelen was the result. There's a similar article reprinted on 35cal.com that talks about the 35's in terms of offering the best L factor (Wooters Lethality Factor) per grain of powder used.

Basically Whelen had the right idea.  You take any 30-caliber cartridge and blow out the neck to .35 and you've got magnum style performance with correspondingly less increase in recoil.  Whelen picked the 30-06 for a starter case.  However, it can be done with a bunch of different cartridges.  Some would say .338 is a better idea.   Who cares?  The deer is not going to know or care.


I go back to what I said last night.  I love my 35 Whelen. I'd love a Savage 99 in 358 WIN, or a custom Marlin 336 in 356 WIN done up by Nonneman.  None of these are necessary for deer. I'm just a touch of a rifle looney.  I'm also a reloader.  If you're not reloading for these cartridges and just using factory loads, some of these .358 cartridges are rare or impossible to find.  They are also going to give you more thump on the shoulder than you really need to take a deer-- not TOO much, but more nonetheless.

More later.

[MI Hunter]

Several years ago I picked up a 358 Win in a BLR.  It has become one of my favorites, a nice handling rifle that has been easy to load for, with several powders performing well. To me, it doesn't recoil any more than my old Rem M700 in 270 with a metal butt plate.  In Handloader a while back (I think Aug 2008) John Barsness had a great article where he tested one in a Ruger Hawkeye.  He got some great performance with Ramshot's TAC and Norma 201.  IIRC, he obtained 2700 fpr with 200 grn bullets, 2550 with 225's and 2400 with 250's.  I've obtained 2500 in my 20" BLR with both the 225 Sierra and TSX.  I also have a Marlin 336  in 35 Rem I load with the 200  grn  Rem CL  RN.  I really like that bullet in both but I have to say I've gotten better accuracy from the 200 grn Sierra RN.   A mild load I have for that one with IMR 4064 shoots very well.  Have you by chance ever seen the test  on the Marlin forum on the 35 caliber bullets with a 35 Rem?

[shaman]

I know John as MuleDeer over on 24hourcampfire.  Yes, I try to read everything that man writes, and he's very accessible. If you ever get over there, tell him the shaman sent you.

The 35 REM?  Follow me here. First off, I'm not a huge fan of 30/30.  I'd been a 30-06 snob in my early years and a 30-30 was my first trip away from home.  It's a long story, but 30-30 did not impress me.  The Marlin 336?  Wonderful rifle.  I really like everything about it, but the 30-30 seemed a bit anemic to me-- long story.

I've since made my peace with 30-30 WIN.  It took a while, but I finally found a load that worked.  In the meanwhile, I found a Savage 99 in 308 WIN that that I deliberately downloaded to 300 Savage levels.  That's been the perfect rifle/round for me so far.  The only thing I like in the Marlin 336 over the Savage 99 is the exposed hammer that comes to half-cock.  I really love deer hunting, in fact hunting in general, with an exposed hammer.

Then I start looking at the 35 REM.  It's very very close to a  30-30 in a lot of ways, except it has more recoil and not all that more range.  So it comes down to this: If I don't have warm fuzzies about 30-30, why do I want a 35 REM?  My explorations will probably take me in a different direction.

I actually do want a Marlin 336 in 35 REM one of these days.  I want to have it re-chambered for 356 WIN and have a 358 WIN equivalent on a Marlin 336 action-- what a sweet rifle that would be.  The 30-30 can get a similar treatment and become a 307 WIN-- a 300 Savage kind or round on the Marlin 336 action.  If these things don't come to pass, I might very well end up with a Browning BLR in 358 WIN, 308 WIN or some such thing-- you just never know.  I also know a bunch of guys who've bought Marlin 336 donor guns in 35 REM and then gotten so attached to them they never send them off for the re-chambering. 

Moral: if you're going to do a custom gun project, never take the donor gun out to the range. It may end up never being mailed to the gunsmith.

One other thing. I'm not going to speak out against Marlin's attempt to make bring out their new rounds in partnership with Hornady.  It's kind of the wave of the future-- people want a rifle and they're locked into buying the special ammo to go with it.  I'm fine with that, and so far the response to these offerings is good.  Personally, I like the idea of building on what's already there. The Marlin offering in 308 is a LOT like 307 WIN and 338 Marlin Express is a LOT like 356 WIN.  I'm also a reloader, so I have biases that other guys don't.

This is all just IMHO.  I'm telling you my basic biases, and I don't mean to tell someone their 35 REM is ugly or their 30-30 is too underpowered to take deer.  This is just an old coot who has finally learned to listen to the voices inside his head-- otherwise they make me do bad things.  The voices are telling me to go down to the shamanic loading cave and polish some brass. I must obey.

[8uck5nort]

[/quote]
In reply to Shaman...

Another I saw was a video somebody had taken of hunting deer with a 12-pounder Napolean civil war cannon.  Yeah, it'll drop one, but please do me the favor and don't start a thread on D&DH talking about it.
[/quote]

At first I thught Shaman made this up. Sorry, but I thought to my self, No Way!.I just had to see this for myself. Found it by googling it.