Feeding Deer in Winter Harms More Than Helps

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SHKYBoonie
 
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RE: Feeding Deer in Winter Harms More Than Helps

Postby SHKYBoonie » Sun Jan 17, 2010 5:43 pm

ORIGINAL: awe7747

I too concur that having a knowlege of plants is helpful. My point is more and more conservation employees are just that nad have not been brought up hunting or even being in the woods. Part of it stems from the fact that more and more women are going into the field. Don't get me wrong I am not slamming women-just stating that a large number of them were not raised hunting or fishing!

 
awe, I wouldn't have touched that with a 10 foot pole! Your gonna get msbadger running circles around the top of your head! LOL
 
In my line of work I do a good bit of work for the State Agencies, the TWRA headquarters is one of my accounts. I have gotten to know the officers in my area well. In my experience from talking to several of them and others that work there, your statement is true for men and women in this department. There are several of them that are animal biologist turned "wildlife biologist" because of there employment in this field, men and women alike. Now, most of the officers I know are every bit as good a hunter as any of us on here. It's usually the "higher ups" that haven't set foot in our environment.

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scotman
 
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RE: Feeding Deer in Winter Harms More Than Helps

Postby scotman » Sun Jan 17, 2010 7:28 pm

Look in the January 2010 issue of D&DH in the article "Food Frenzy" by Matt Harper. If you don't want to read the whole thing, go to the subtitle "Biological Effects on Feeding Habits". It explains in detail why cattle digestive systems are different than deer and thus making them not be able to get any usable nutrients from hay.


@ SHKYBoonie Lets back the train up here you sit their and harp on me for using google and reading books but then it is ok for you to do the same....You give a new meaning to the saying, the sh@t is getting deep! I would put a wink in there but you probably think I was flirting with you.

@ proline ..On a better note thanks proline for taking humor in it, your comment did make me smile.
"The deerskin rug on our study floor, the buck's head over the fireplace, what are these after all but the keys which have unlocked enchanted doors, and granted us not only health and vigor, but a fresh and fairer vision of existence" -Paul. Brandreth

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SHKYBoonie
 
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RE: Feeding Deer in Winter Harms More Than Helps

Postby SHKYBoonie » Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:11 pm

ORIGINAL: scotman

Look in the January 2010 issue of D&DH in the article "Food Frenzy" by Matt Harper. If you don't want to read the whole thing, go to the subtitle "Biological Effects on Feeding Habits". It explains in detail why cattle digestive systems are different than deer and thus making them not be able to get any usable nutrients from hay.


@ SHKYBoonie Lets back the train up here you sit their and harp on me for using google and reading books but then it is ok for you to do the same....You give a new meaning to the saying, the sh@t is getting deep! I would put a wink in there but you probably think I was flirting with you.

@ proline ..On a better note thanks proline for taking humor in it, your comment did make me smile.

 
I have never said that I didn't read or do research. After all, that's why I'm on this forum and subscribe to D&DH mag. What I said was, if you are going to state something in a "matter of fact" way, know it from experience. You have a bad way of leaving out pieces of the quote you make remarks for. Here is the rest of that quote, "Now, I am no biologist in any sense of the word, so I too am going on what I am told. Just thought you might want to read through it yourself." I do not know this for a fact. That is why the part you quoted was followed by this statement.
 
Yep, you know us Southern Rednecks, anybody that pays attention to us is flirting! LOL

msbadger
 
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RE: Feeding Deer in Winter Harms More Than Helps

Postby msbadger » Mon Jan 18, 2010 2:41 am

As stated I think intervention based on a number of things and supervised by the DEC/DNR....Now here's something I thought you'd find interesting and why I feed during the winter very weedy hay to my goat herd...they won't touch grass hays...unless nearly starving


Think of goats as 'first cousins' to deer. Goats range and forage like deer, eating the same types of plants. Because goats are not naturally resistant to stomach worms, they eat 'from the top down.' Wherever goats forage heavily, a browse line will be present, above which the forage is intact and below which the goats have obviously eaten. Trying to make grazing animals of goats invites worm infestation. Goats will eat grasses, but only when other, more nutritious weeds and leaves are not available.


Skyboonie.....I thought I handled that other thing pretty well...for me...lol[:D]

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SHKYBoonie
 
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RE: Feeding Deer in Winter Harms More Than Helps

Postby SHKYBoonie » Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:35 am

msbadger, I thought you handled it very well indeed...for you.[;)]
I got a good laugh out of your opening remark.[:D] 

bowman12
 
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RE: Feeding Deer in Winter Harms More Than Helps

Postby bowman12 » Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:29 am

Well Woods Walker, I've heeded your advice and am on my way to recognizing plant species and if there is any negative effect happening from too many deer. It took a little digging but I've already learned a few things about our hunting land and it's going to be an interesting process. If anybody is interested in learning about there properties natural plants I suggest going to your department of natural resources page, MN has tons of info.
We're part of the Laurentian mixed hardwood forest of MN, we have "willow swamp", "white cedar forest", and "floodplain forest" dominated by green ash with some aspen and swamp white oak. I ordered the field guide to identifying plant species for the Laurentian forest. Should be interesting this spring after green up, maybe find a shed or two as well.
 

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clfenimore
 
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RE: Feeding Deer in Winter Harms More Than Helps

Postby clfenimore » Mon Jan 18, 2010 3:49 pm

Point duly noted I read the article written by Matt Harper from Iowa and The point he made that deer have a narrow muzzle they are selective feeders and will pick and choose what they eat choosing the more tender young growth. He categorized cattle as having wider muzzle and are not selective. His example about an alfalfa field that the deer would use the field Progressively less as the field matured and when the field was mowed and the new shoots emerged the deer would begin using the field once more. So good point that although deer and cattle are both ruminants their digestive systems are different because of size. As to his statement about hay he said Cattle can be feed "Low Quality Hay" and be able to derive nutrients from it whereas deer would literally starve to death on the same diet. Which is what happens in northern states when big woods deer are fed supplemental hay during harsh winters "His words" I see that it would be better to supplemental feed something the deer could best digest and get the most nutrients from. He did however say "low quality Hay" and not all hay is Low quality!
According to some biologists the best way to insure heard survival is done by reducing deer numbers and domestic livestock numbers to levels that allow the range to recover and remain in good condition from one year to the next. Also fertilizing natural forage increases its value.
Personally I don't feed deer or plant food plots though I see there are allot of deer hunters on both sides of the issue.
Great Thread
If a man cant hunt when he's living how the hell will he hunt when he's dead

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Woods Walker
 
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RE: Feeding Deer in Winter Harms More Than Helps

Postby Woods Walker » Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:17 am

ORIGINAL: bowman12

Well Woods Walker, I've heeded your advice and am on my way to recognizing plant species and if there is any negative effect happening from too many deer. It took a little digging but I've already learned a few things about our hunting land and it's going to be an interesting process. If anybody is interested in learning about there properties natural plants I suggest going to your department of natural resources page, MN has tons of info.
We're part of the Laurentian mixed hardwood forest of MN, we have "willow swamp", "white cedar forest", and "floodplain forest" dominated by green ash with some aspen and swamp white oak. I ordered the field guide to identifying plant species for the Laurentian forest. Should be interesting this spring after green up, maybe find a shed or two as well.


 
Good for you! What will also begin to realize, is that you've just increased your "hunting" season by a sizeable part of the year......and what you will learn is going to make you a better naturalist on the whole, besides being a better hunter. Learning the plant communities in your area will also by default teach you about other wildlife that's there.
 
I give you fair warning though, the more you learn, the more questions you are going to have......and that's the joy of it!
Hunt Hard,

Kill Swiftly,

Waste Nothing,

Offer No Apologies.....

>>>--------------------------------->
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jmontefusco
 
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RE: Feeding Deer in Winter Harms More Than Helps

Postby jmontefusco » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:49 pm

[:@]This has been a raging argument for a long time....here in NJ it is a viable, acceptable practice and (believe it or not) has been for a long time. (in fact baiting bears is ok here too, and we finally have a Gov. that may let it happen). I bait and I don't, it depends on where I'm hunting and what I'm trying to accomplish. I have no issue what so ever with it. At my place in NY (Adirondacks) baiting/feeding was allowed forever until one day few years ago ONE or TWO deer contracted CWD from a captive herd. One was outside the fence, one inside. DEC took that as opportunity to stop ALL baiting/feeding. Fast forward approx 5 years...never been another case and, SURPRISE1 Bright lights inAlbany won't allow it again..In the time this was happening, anti's were thumping chests over their "victory" and, thanks to them, it won't happen again - at least in foreseeable future...
[>:]
To these points, I know there are true nutritional deficiencies in corn as a mainstay feed for winter. However, folks need to be trained on what should / should not be fed and feeding SHOULD be allowed, even encouraged...In the Adirondacks, DEC readily admits that in many areas there is no longer enough forage base to enable a growing, thriving deerherd. You can see the areas that winter feed (albeit illegally) are doing it correctly, utilizing appropriate feeds etc, not just corn.
[>:]
Those deer make it through the winter do so in MUCH better shape. The does are heavier, fawns are bigger, lactation rates (from what we can tell) are better...we see this in our own anecdotal studies...it would sure BE NICE if the Albany bright lights allowed DEC (you know, the folks with knowledge, equipment and know how) to study the issue and come up with a plan to encourage winter supplemental feeding. It does not have to be "baiting", just a way to help them through historically rough winters. Food plots are legal, in reality, what is the difference? (Rhetorical question - I don't need 10,000 responses explaining the error in my thinking) I know there are differences but supplememntal feeding / minerals could only benefit the herd in the long run.
[>:]
I have a lot more to say but, it's Sun, I'm tired, Dopey Jets lost sooo...goodnight everybody![&o]
John

If you don't stand for something, you stand for nothing.

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scotman
 
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RE: Feeding Deer in Winter Harms More Than Helps

Postby scotman » Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:36 pm

The problem with that logic if baiting and supplemental feeding was allowed for years in the Adirondacks where severe over browsing is occurring, then maybe instead of allowing more deer to make it through the winter we need to allow less deer to stop the over browsing in the first place. So what we have is people caring to the point of interfering with the eco-system hoping to fix the problem by allowing winter feeding but in the long run they are the true cause of the problem to begin with. If over browsing is occurring and the population is exploding that means more deer need to be harvested period, but if that is not happening. Meaning if the back tags and extra permits are not being issued then we have hunters compounding the problem with allowing more deer to survive the winter to only put off the root of the problem for the next generation to deal with. The problem we have is each and every idea of a healthy herd differs, some think if antler growth is not sufficient enough then we have a deficiency in that herd and we need to take steps to solve it. I disagree with this notion that our eco-system as a whole is flawed and we need to do something to fix it. 
"The deerskin rug on our study floor, the buck's head over the fireplace, what are these after all but the keys which have unlocked enchanted doors, and granted us not only health and vigor, but a fresh and fairer vision of existence" -Paul. Brandreth

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