Approx score of Antlers??

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Patriot
 
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RE: Approx score of Antlers??

Postby Patriot » Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:50 am

ORIGINAL: Ben Sobieck

Take it outside, kids, if you can't play nice.

 
I just went outside, but no one was there.[;)]
 
Sorry fellas.  I let my emotions get the best of me last night.
Paul K. "aim small, miss small"
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ranwin33
 
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RE: Approx score of Antlers??

Postby ranwin33 » Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:20 am

ORIGINAL: Marc Anthony

You know, it's just a shame because I talk to Dan S. about once a week and I really like his magazine and Dan himself. Good luck this season....I won't bother you people anymore. God bless.

And it is a shame if you choose not to post here anymore.  I for one enjoyed your perspective on things, although I will say that we tend to be in the same camp on letting deer walk and wanting others to have similar standards. 
 
But given the comments in other threads regarding hunting shows and hunting celebrities you should have also known you were going to take heat once you mentioned you were a professional writer and professional hunter sponsered by outdoor manufacturers.  If not, then Dan should have given you a warning.  At least be thankful you're not Jackie Bushman, then you would have really gotten some grief.
 
And I really like your reasoning as to why we shouldn't shoot a 120 class deer - and your understanding of the Boone and Crokett club.
Some hunters don't understand the importance of a 120" buck JPH. They don't understand that a buck that size, in a state that can produce much bigger bucks, have already made it past the toughest part of their life. If they can just grow one more year, the rewards of conservation (and trophies) are exponential. When a guy says the name "Boone and Crockett", most hunters think trophy or record book monster, but in reality, the B&C club was really created FOR conservation by letting the younger animals walk and for the hunters to take the larger, more mature animals. This club was founded by our past great conservation president Teddy Roosevelt for the purpose of giving the animals a complete cycle of life where they could live healthy lives while young but would be harvested at the mature age as to not die a lingering death. Taking out a 120" deer, (conservation wise) is taking a healthy young animal before it's prime.

 
Bottom line is - you can bring a lot to this forum and the group of people "living" here - we need as many diverse viewpoints and backgrounds as possible because we never know what someone has to teach us.
 
“There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace.”
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ranwin33
 
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RE: Approx score of Antlers??

Postby ranwin33 » Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:26 am

ORIGINAL: Goose

Some interesting quotes:

"Some people accuse QDMers being all about antlers.You and I know that this is not accurate, so where did they get this idea?"

These are just a couple of quotes from a great article written by the editor of QDMA's Quality Whitetails magazine. I recommend you read it, and I think you can see who is educated in the QDMA philosophy and who isn't.

I think that one is pretty simple.  Older deer tend to grow bigger antlers, so if you're practicing QDM and growing older deer, then most likely those deer will have bigger antlers.  Most QDM'ers will look at a deers rack when gauging age because we know that there aren't a lot of 3.5 year old spikes and 4 pointers running around, so if a deer has a large rack then it most likely also has some age to it. 
 
Consequently people make the inferance that QDMers are all about antlers because larger antlers come with older age.
“There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace.”
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buckfarmdude
 
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RE: Approx score of Antlers??

Postby buckfarmdude » Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:27 am

Nice buck! Looks 130ish to me. The last night shot looks like a different deer. Not as much mass.
Psalm 42:1 "As the deer pants for the water brooks, So my soul pants for Thee O God."

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RE: Approx score of Antlers??

Postby buckhunter21 » Fri Oct 09, 2009 7:35 am

So I've read through this thread over and over....Trying to think of what to say.  I think everyone here posts a lot of good points...As most of you know that have been on the forum for a while, this isn't the first heated debate, and it won't be the last.  Let's play fair, take it for what it is, and move on.  I think everyone here has a lot to add to the forum, so we really don't want to lose anyone....We're a family!!!!  [:D]
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RE: Approx score of Antlers??

Postby Goose » Fri Oct 09, 2009 1:07 pm

Actually, the point of the article was to say that QDMA is not about big racks, its about a healthy herd.
It was saying how it gets this reputation because people that call themselves QDM'ers, and are in a lot different situation, try to make people that are not in the same situation feel like they are "less" of a hunter because they are not passing on the 2.5 and 3.5's.
These people that are passing yearlings and shooting the 2.5's are just as much into QDM as the person who's passing the 4.5 and shooting the 5.5's.
Again, straight from the Cornerstones of the QDMA.
 
 
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Genesis 27:3 Take your bow and quiver full of arrows out into the open country, and hunt some wild game.....

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RE: Approx score of Antlers??

Postby Everyday Hunter » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:29 pm

[/quote]
ORIGINAL: Goose

These people that are passing yearlings and shooting the 2.5's are just as much into QDM as the person who's passing the 4.5 and shooting the 5.5's.

That a good clarifying point, and I'm going to use it.

Steve
When the Everyday Hunter isn't hunting, he's thinking about hunting, talking about hunting, dreaming about hunting, writing about hunting, or wishing he were hunting.
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ranwin33
 
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RE: Approx score of Antlers??

Postby ranwin33 » Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:17 pm

ORIGINAL: Goose

Actually, the point of the article was to say that QDMA is not about big racks, its about a healthy herd.
It was saying how it gets this reputation because people that call themselves QDM'ers, and are in a lot different situation, try to make people that are not in the same situation feel like they are "less" of a hunter because they are not passing on the 2.5 and 3.5's.
These people that are passing yearlings and shooting the 2.5's are just as much into QDM as the person who's passing the 4.5 and shooting the 5.5's.
Again, straight from the Cornerstones of the QDMA.

Not wanting to start another argument here, but one of the cornerstones of QDM is striving toward a balanced age structure - so.... somebody who passes on 1.5 year old bucks but shoots everything else isn't really as much into QDM as someone who passes on those 2.5's and 3.5's because those people who shoot anything older than 1.5 aren't striving for a balanced age structure. I would say they are moving in the right direction, but they still have a ways to go if they really want to be practicing QDM.
“There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace.”
Aldo Leopold

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Goose
 
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RE: Approx score of Antlers??

Postby Goose » Fri Oct 09, 2009 4:09 pm

From QDMA :
 
"
Antlered Buck Management
Another important aspect of herd management is establishing appropriate harvest restrictions for bucks. Restrictions are established on a property-specific basis according to hunter objectives, property size, habitat quality, management practices on surrounding properties, and other factors. A reasonable starting point for most QDM programs is the protection of yearling bucks.

Several body and antler characteristics can be used to distinguish yearling bucks from older bucks. For simplicity, most properties use antler characteristics such as a minimum number of points. However, in many areas, the number of antler points is a poor predictor of age and should not be used as the only harvest restriction. Other antler characteristics, such as antler spread and antler length, are generally better predictors of age, but more difficult for the average hunter to judge. When possible, both antler and body characteristics should be used to maximize reliability.

The appropriate restriction or combination of restrictions that best protect yearling bucks is determined by examining previous years' harvest data on your property. The restriction selected should protect all or nearly all yearling bucks, especially the largest-antlered yearling bucks. If no previous data are available, contact your state wildlife agency. Usually, they can provide assistance in selecting the most appropriate initial restriction. After the first few years, the restriction can be fine-tuned through the harvest data collected on the property.

Often, QDM participants increase the harvest restriction over time to protect other age classes in addition to yearlings. Antler size of even mature bucks can vary greatly. Therefore, a mistake to avoid is the establishment of a minimum harvest restriction so high that many mature bucks never reach harvestable status. This can result in these small-antlered mature bucks breeding many does, which may negatively affect herd antler size over time. Some deer managers recommend culling these smaller-antlered mature bucks. However, this requires more experience in estimating deer age and antler size than most hunters have. Most deer managers agree that bucks should not be culled until they are least 3.5 or 4.5 years of age, if ever. Generally, this approach is reserved for very experienced hunters on properties practicing trophy deer management."
 
I personally believe that too many people grab a big old blanket and throw it over this QDM thing. That is not the case, and everything that they-the QDMA- print or talk about backs that up.
This management practice is very flexible and needs to be. For one person to say that the other person should be doing this or that just doesn't work. Its a property by property thing.
One person who can control several hundred acres with neighbors that are on board with the same goals is gonna be completely different than the guy on a 40 surrounded by neighbors who want to shoot what they have the legal right to shoot. To say that this person should hold out for a 3.5 is just not a reasonable thing to say.
Yes you or I may be in a good position to get a crack at a nice older deer if we pass up the younger deer, but to tell everybody that, is just not right, and it is not the idea behind QDM.
There are many factors that come into play on each property, and I don't believe its right to sit behind a computer and tell people what they should be doing on THEIR property when we have no idea what situation they are in.
In my opinion, this type of stuff is also what gives QDM a bad rap.
Also, I feel that if someone asks for advice or help with understanding QDM, I feel we have the responsibility to educate them and help them understand the whole thing. Not just that you have to pass up nice bucks to get great bucks. There is more to it than that, and its a great process that takes steps not leaps.
This QDM thing is great, but we cant expect it to be the same for everybody.
Thats not the way it is designed.
Jake

Genesis 27:3 Take your bow and quiver full of arrows out into the open country, and hunt some wild game.....

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ranwin33
 
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RE: Approx score of Antlers??

Postby ranwin33 » Fri Oct 09, 2009 5:13 pm

My point was to refer back to your post:

"These people that are passing yearlings and shooting the 2.5's are just as much into QDM as the person who's passing the 4.5 and shooting the 5.5's."

My feeling is that you can have different levels of committment to QDM and that people who shoot 2.5's don't have the same committment as someone who is willing to pass until a buck reaches 5.5. Sure they may both be practicing QDM, but one guy is much more into it than the other.

I am not making the case that because it's right for me to pass on 2.5's that it's also right for every one else, but I would argue that those hunters who are willing to make the sacrifice and pass on younger deer for older deer are more into QDM than those who aren't willing to make that sacrifice. Again, going back to the one of the cornerstones of QDM; the idea of a balanced age structure.

As much as I like to believe myself a practitioner of QDM, I know my committment is not the same as someone who will pass that 3.5/4.5 year old buck and wait for 5.5 or older. That doesn't make me or them wrong or right, it just makes our committment levels different so yeah, I'd say they would be more into it than I am.
“There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace.”
Aldo Leopold

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