Corn: Blessing or Curse?

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retch sweeny
 
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RE: Corn: Blessing or Curse?

Postby retch sweeny » Mon Sep 21, 2009 11:08 am

ORIGINAL: Goose

I will say that a corn pile and a food plot are not the same thing.


There are if you look at it with itellectual honesty. A hunter placing food to attract and congregate deer is a baiter as soon as he hunts over or near it or uses it to his advantage to take game. Is it exactly the same? No since food plots also cause the unnecessary use of ag chemicals and herbicides to be placed into the soil (water supply eventually) as well as any soil run off. Aside from their ability to spread disease, they have some worse characteristics than a bait pile.

While most states and game managers are trying to figure out how to reduce deer overpopulation, many deer feeders are looking for ways to increase the herd size and surviabilty and the carrying capacity of the land. What ever happened to the good old days of scouting and using woodsmanship and hardiness to hunt deer? A trip to a sports show is now more like a farm expo. Hunting has turned into deer farming with selective culling and domesticating them with feed. Many hunters these days only hunt for a good place to dump bait or plant bait.

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OHhunter
 
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RE: Corn: Blessing or Curse?

Postby OHhunter » Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:13 pm

If you take the time to study CWD, deer to deer transmission is not the issue. Nose to nose means very little compared to nose to earth. It's the urine and feces that build up in the soil when deer return to the same plot or pile. Read my first post to gain a better understanding of what is taking palce


First I didn't know CWD was the only disease we are concerned about. Second contact with contaminated soil, feces, and urine is still going to be greater when you concentrate animals in a small space (bait pile) even when compared to a 1/2 to 3/4 acre food plot. To better understand what is taking place I found a few facts about disease transmition and baiting.

-High concentrations of deer around feeding and baiting sites facilitate disease transmission through increased animal-to-animal contact and possibly through contamination of feed (Palmer et al. 2001, Schmitt et al. 2002).

-White-tailed deer receiving artificial feed in Maine have suffered from outbreaks of demodectic mange caused by the spread of mites while at feeding stations (Maine Department of Inland Fisheries and Wildlife 2002, see www.state.me.us/ifw/hunt/deerfeed.htm).

-Winter feeding of white-tailed deer can lead to starvation of some individuals if the feeding delays the migration of deer to their winter yards, or if artificial feeding is terminated abruptly (Ozoga and Verme 1982).

-Recent epidemiological research suggests that baiting and feeding of deer enabled the TB outbreak in Michigan to persist and spread and that declines in TB prevalence were associated with a ban on baiting and feeding (O'Brien et al 2002).

-Large quantities of grain, or the sudden ingestion of feed high in carbohydrates without acclimation results in acidic conditions in a deer's rumen (stomach). This kills the bacteria necessary for digestion and causes bloating, diarrhea, enteritis, and in extreme cases death. The visible affects on deer include lameness, arthritis, and a decrease in appetite (Lyons 2000). This condition reportedly occurs yearly in Michigan (Mich. DNR 1999). During a severe winter in Saskatchewan 30% of the deer found dead near cattle feedlots were diagnosed with lactic acidosis (Wobster and Runge 1975). Deer have been found dead and suffering due to this condition in Wisconsin, but the widespread affect is not known (Langenberg 2001).

Let's not leave out the non target species of baiting, since there is other wildlife out there other than deer.

-Clark et al., (1996) warned that increased nutrition of predators through supplemental feeding could lead to increased productivity, survival and, ultimately, increased populations of predators in the habitat.

-Neal Wilkins found that 40% of a sampling of 100 bags of deer corn sold in Texas last year (2000) had levels of aflatoxin that were illegal, and 20% had levels that would be toxic to birds and other non-target species, as well as deer if consumed over a long period of time.

-Wild Rio Grande turkeys typically nest within 400m of water and 840m of tall roosting trees (Ransom et al., 1987). Similar habitat also is attractive to raccoons (Rabinowitz and Pelton, 1986). Placing deer feeders at such sites is likely to attract raccoons and other nest predators and increase predation pressure on turkeys and other ground-nesting birds.

-(Cooper and Ginnett, 2000) We tested the hypothesis that supplemental feeding of deer on rangelands may negatively impact populations of wild turkeys and other ground nesting birds by concentrating potential nest predators, such as raccoons and skunks, near feeders. Each April for 3 consecutive years, we monitored the survival rates of 200 artificial nests (consisting of 3 chicken eggs per nest) placed in 4 areas with and without supplemental deer feed. Ground nests in the vicinity of feeders were at greater risk of discovery by predators (86%) than were nests in areas where supplemental feed was not available (58.5%). During 1999 we again observed higher predation rates at sites with feeders. Raccoons and striped skunks were the most abundant nest predators. We recommend that managers concerned with wild turkey and quail production should avoid placing deer feeders in nesting habitat and/or should cease supplemental feeding during the nesting season .
Brad

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OHhunter
 
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RE: Corn: Blessing or Curse?

Postby OHhunter » Mon Sep 21, 2009 12:20 pm

I was unaware that only bowhunters used bait plots. 1/2 and 3/4 acre food plots are more the norm that 3 acre plots. Regardless of size, your hunting over bait placed by a hunter to give an advantage. Some just don't want to admit it.


Correct! Making plots worse from a disease transmission standpoint. The constant and repeated attracting and congregating of deer allow for more infectious material to be deposited over a longer period of time.


I was only going by my expiriences, and our 5 acres of clover/wheat unless you count the 150+ acres of corn and beans on the farm. That will continue to benefit wildlife throughout the winter, not taken away from them when winter hits and to cold to haul 50lbs. corn out to the feeder/pile every other day. With this much food available I don't for see any greater concentration on the small clover/wheat as compared to the rest of the food available on the farm.
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Goose
 
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RE: Corn: Blessing or Curse?

Postby Goose » Mon Sep 21, 2009 1:29 pm

ORIGINAL: retch sweeny

ORIGINAL: Goose

I will say that a corn pile and a food plot are not the same thing.


There are if you look at it with itellectual honesty.


Alright, you bring up similarities with baiting and food plots and call them the same thing because they have the same means, right?
Why is it not the same thing with you and crossbows then? Similarities with the same means.
Or is it only when it suits your fancy that it is right?
Jake

Genesis 27:3 Take your bow and quiver full of arrows out into the open country, and hunt some wild game.....

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JPH
 
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RE: Corn: Blessing or Curse?

Postby JPH » Mon Sep 21, 2009 3:11 pm

ORIGINAL: retch sweeny

ORIGINAL: Goose

I will say that a corn pile and a food plot are not the same thing.


There are if you look at it with itellectual honesty. A hunter placing food to attract and congregate deer is a baiter as soon as he hunts over or near it or uses it to his advantage to take game. Is it exactly the same? No since food plots also cause the unnecessary use of ag chemicals and herbicides to be placed into the soil (water supply eventually) as well as any soil run off. Aside from their ability to spread disease, they have some worse characteristics than a bait pile.

While most states and game managers are trying to figure out how to reduce deer overpopulation, many deer feeders are looking for ways to increase the herd size and surviabilty and the carrying capacity of the land. What ever happened to the good old days of scouting and using woodsmanship and hardiness to hunt deer? A trip to a sports show is now more like a farm expo. Hunting has turned into deer farming with selective culling and domesticating them with feed. Many hunters these days only hunt for a good place to dump bait or plant bait.


No retch, not at all.

For one thing, food plots are not as concentrated nor are they as artificial as bait piles. Here are a few more points that refute your stance:
- Food plots require a knowledge of the plants and the soil as well as the ability and dedication to plant and cultivate. Bait piles require the ability to dump a bucket.
-Ag chemicals, when used properly, have a positive impact on conservation. Most ag land is far more conducive to wild game than it was prior to the plow and chemical. Yeah, I'd rather that Iowa was still wild but now that it is not, I understand that judicious use of chemicals is beneficial.
- Food plots are very rarely about increasing the size of the herd. They are almost always about managing the herd and making those deer that are left healthier.
- As for woodsmanship, you cold not be further off. Hunters who take the time to learn about what kinds of plants will flourish in a certain type of soil and how this will benefit and effect the deer are a cut above. These are the hunters who are working to be more than consumers. They are being stewards.

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ranwin33
 
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RE: Corn: Blessing or Curse?

Postby ranwin33 » Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:25 am

ORIGINAL: USN_Sam1385

ORIGINAL: buckhunter21

Corn, as an attractant (putting it in piles, etc), I'm against.  Obviously it's legal in some states versus others.  But, planting it as a food plot, I don't see anything wrong with that.  Harvested or un-harvested, this is a great crop for the deer to eat to bulk up for the stresses that happen because of the rut, or to recover post-rut...Also a great survival food in the winter with those carbs!


Whats the difference between the pile of corn, and the unharvested plot of corn?? Besides the corn is off the cob?

Several thousand square feet.
“There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace.”
Aldo Leopold

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ranwin33
 
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RE: Corn: Blessing or Curse?

Postby ranwin33 » Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:29 am

ORIGINAL: JPH
No retch, not at all.

For one thing, food plots are not as concentrated nor are they as artificial as bait piles. Here are a few more points that refute your stance:
- Food plots require a knowledge of the plants and the soil as well as the ability and dedication to plant and cultivate. Bait piles require the ability to dump a bucket.
-Ag chemicals, when used properly, have a positive impact on conservation. Most ag land is far more conducive to wild game than it was prior to the plow and chemical. Yeah, I'd rather that Iowa was still wild but now that it is not, I understand that judicious use of chemicals is beneficial.
- Food plots are very rarely about increasing the size of the herd. They are almost always about managing the herd and making those deer that are left healthier.
- As for woodsmanship, you cold not be further off. Hunters who take the time to learn about what kinds of plants will flourish in a certain type of soil and how this will benefit and effect the deer are a cut above. These are the hunters who are working to be more than consumers. They are being stewards.

 
X2
“There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace.”
Aldo Leopold

USNavyChiefRet
 
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RE: Corn: Blessing or Curse?

Postby USNavyChiefRet » Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:22 am

In Minnesota it is illegal to "bait" deer and that means utilizing a feeder, placing bait (i.e. corn, fruit, pumpkins) in the are you intend to hunt. This doesn't apply to scents or for example a salt block.
If yuu have placed a feeder on your property you have to remove it 10 days before you intend to hunt that location, otherwise it is considered "baiting". If you are hunting your property and your neighbor has placed a feeder on his property within close proximity to your hunting location it is not considered "baiting" for your purposes.
I see all these "hunting shows" from down south, Texas, for one, where they have all these buck coming in. The thing they don't show you is the feeder that is out of camera range. Then the "hunter" sets up within a certain yardage of this feeder and they film a "hunt" where they kill a huge buck. This is NOT hunting! It's SHOOTING! I've even heard the question posed to them as to "why do you feed deer like this?" and the reply is usually something like "if we didn't we wouldn't see as many or any deer". I find this rather amusing. Last year, in Minnesota, the DNR wrote more citations for "baiting" deer than they ever have in the past and I hope they continue to do so. "Baiting" is NOT hunting! It is as I said SHOOTING deer. If you hunt over a standing corn field, bean field, alfalfa field, etc, that is not  baiting it is normal agriculture and there is nothing wrong with that. In years past the MN DNR has fed deer from the air in mid-winter during a really tough winter with a lot of snow and very cold temps. This should be done to maintain the deer herd. Minnesota DNR does a pretty good job overall in maintaining the deer population. Right now there are so many deer in the Mpls/St. Paul metro area a bowhunter can take as many deer in this area as he/she wants. The problem is getting permission to hunt some of these areas. I have never baited deer. I hunt in northern MN about 65 miles south of Canada and have never has a problem seeing deer. It's up to me to decide whether I want to take a certain deer without any form of baiting and that's as it should be. Many of these hunting shows simply want to get the "shot on camera" and will resort to any means to do so. It's not hunting, plain and simple.
USNavyChiefRet

FIRELTTOM
 
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RE: Corn: Blessing or Curse?

Postby FIRELTTOM » Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:25 pm

Some random thoughts on the whole baiting issue.
 
While I disagree with Retch Sweeney on several things at least he is basing a large part of his argument on science, not emotion or rhetoric; a welcome change.
 
From an ethical or sporting perspective a bait pile cannot be considered the same as even a small food plot. Bait poured from a bucket into a 5 sq foot pile isn't close to even a 1/4 acre foodplot as far as ways the deer can enter or exit. Echoing a previous post - a 5 gallon pail quals five sq feet; a 1 acre food plot equals over 40,000 sq ft!!
 
It's not just CWD we need to talk about. Theres Bovine TB (nose to nose contact, saliva contact), EHD or "blue tongue" just to name a couple. Baiting is without question more problematic here than food plots.
 
Baiting requires the same ammount of time to plan as it's taking me to type this.  Food plots require research, hard work, weather and a fair ammount of luck not to mention your appealing to a deers natural tendency to browse rather than step up to the trough.
 
Food plots are meant to work with nature. By that I mean they are slow to establish, mature and then gradually fade; allowing deer to treat them as any natural food source.
 
Wardens here in Wisconsin are writing more tickets than ever for baiting violations. I'd be happy to supply the pens! "Not all baiters violate but all but all violaters bait."
 
Lastly, if it takes me giving up on my 1/4 acre clover plot (spread out over several hundred feet of logging road and put in with a roto-tiller and hand tools!!) to out-law baiting statewide her in Wisconsin then so be it. I've been hunter, not a shooter going on 27 years now; I'll be fine.
 
OK, one more thing. We the hunting community should never fear calm, reasoned, intelligent debate on issues such as this. The whole argument of pitting hunter against hunter should be moot so long as at the end of the day we are stiil the hunting communutity untited against the anti's.

FIRELTTOM
 
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RE: Corn: Blessing or Curse?

Postby FIRELTTOM » Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:29 pm

Sorry for the typos, I type for s#%t. Also, the quote about violators and baiting came from a warden.

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