Antler restrictions

[Rmewrench]

The gentleman that was mainly responsible for the Antler ristrictions being enacted in PA some years back, recieved so much negative pressure that he ended up resigning from his position. I cant remember the gentlemans name, sorry.

SCIENTIFIC research shows that AGE structure is an important factor in herd manangement. One of the side effects of letting bucks reach a higher level of maturity is bigger ANTLERS. One of the ways to manage for age structure is impose an antler restriction. At the same time of the anter restrictions PA also upped its anterless harvest. If I'm not mistaken a button buck is considered anterless in PA. Point was, to bring buck to doe ratio's into check along with mananging for age structure. Sure the first couple of years suck, buck the payoff is ten fold. With proper age structure and buck /doe ratio's you see a healthier herd, more profound rutting behavior, and bigger bucks. If im not mistaken a southern state..I think it was GA enacted an antler restirction a long, long time ago, in certain management areas and it tremendously helped the herd. For meat hunters....Shoot a doe....and with no restriction for youths how is an anter restiction limiting opportunity?? As for shooting a buck that doesnt meet the restrictions....well PA does not have what I call a positive check in system. In PA you fill your tag out and MAIL it in. Where I live we have to physically take the animal to a check-in station and have it checked. So how many bucks get harvested that arent legal?? I"m sure the Fish and Wildlife people in PA cant follow up EVERY tagged animal...
I think as hunters and we go through life our wants and needs as individual hunters changes, along with some hunting regs. When I was younger I wanted to harvest any legal animal. Deer gun season was a week long buck or doe the first 2 days then buck only the rest of the week. I live in the most Northeastern part of Ohio. Staeline Rd for PA is about 5 mi from my house. In my area of Ohio we are able to harvest 4 deer, one buck and 3 anterless, two of the antlerless tags are only good till gun season starts. Point being I have a family now. I harvested three does last year just for the meat. With three boys in the house it does ease the grocery bill for awhile.. I chose to let several bucks walk because my family is not dependent on venison for survival. So I would truely like to use my buck tag on a wall hanger. I think as Hunters and Conservationist, we should educate ourselves on what is truely best for the herd and to help maintain its health and longevity for future generations of hunters. Over the years I"ve tried my best to educate myself to become a better hunter and conservationist. I've read some of Charlie Alsheimer's books and several of Dr. Kroll's books. I think people would be suprised about the SCIENTIFIC data that is out there for whitetail deer..

[Osty]

APRs can work in areas that have the nutrition and hunter cooperation. However, how am I going to age a deer on the hoof when I have a short time to shoot? I'm more worried about:
-If it's legal and I have a tag
-How close is it coming
-Where can I shoot
-Getting ready for the shot

APRs are nice to have if you have landowner cooperation. However, I get only a small time to hunt and do not want to be told what I can and can't shoot for antlers. I think Wisconsin could have did a better job when the population was growing in the 80's, 90's, early 00's. My county issued about 1,000-2,000 doe permits. Now you can purchase over-the-counter doe tags with somewhere between 15,000-19,000 available. If they would have issued a few more tags earlier then we would have better buck to doe ratios.

[nromn]

I posted this in another thread in the MN forum, but thought I would post it here as this gets more traffic. Not to highjack the thread, but don't know that it needs its own topic...
 
First of all, I am a first time poster, but have been reading for a long time and appreciate all of the knowledge I have been getting from more experienced hunters.

I have a question about these antler restrictions. I hunt in SW mn on public land and every yearling I have ever shot (in my younger days)has had 4 pts on at least 1 side and I would say 70% of the yearlings I have seen would also meet those qualifications.

So to me it seems like with those restrictions, the young guys with superior genetics are still able to be harvested in the first year, while the yearlings with worse genetics are allowed to live until the next year (and pass on their genes) .

To me it seems a little counter productive that you can still shoot the best yearlings (and also most yearlings, based on my unscientific reasearch), but let the least desireable yearlings go. It seems like putting a restriction on shooting yearlings would be more beneficial. 

I have seen other posters saying this type of restriction has really increased the quality of bucks they have seen. I imagine in these areas spike bucks are more normal? Maybe my observations are not reality or my area is not representative of the rest of the state?

Since I don't have my own land, I am not huge into QDM, besides what I have read in DDHM. I have been passing on all yearlings the last 7 or so years (only been hunting about 12 years). But if someone could explain what I seem to be missing, I would appreciate it.

Thanks in advance and happy hunting!

[dtrain56]

Well, where to start

PA APR's are a god send...it used to be 90% 1 1/2 year old were killed now it is down to about 50% -

genetics in Pa are passed on because gun season is after the rut...

Age and nutrition have a greater impact than genetics on antler growth, that has been proven time and again.

Habitait - in PA where i hunt no farms..it is not illinois or iowa or ohio..where their are vast farms and plenty to eat..rack size is smaller and take more time to grow a decent set.

Believe me i live in OHIO huge bucks..at - 2 1/2.

The deer herd is not small in PA, and in the past residents were used to seeing 40 doe to one buck with a forest that couldn't feed all those deer so racks were even smaller

do APR's have fault yeap...so does any regulation...hell having a season at all is a hinderence...why can't i use my spot light..i would certaintly kill the big 12 pt in my camera at 3 am then..

APR's are an easy way to better the herd ....less deer more food they have the older they get the bigger they are...

I wish they would go 4pts in my wmu...it would only make it better

[Dan Salmon]

nromn,

This is the reason the the APR is usually determined by the zone that is being managed. 

For example, if WI were to put a single 3 point on one side APR for the entire state, hunters in the North would throw a holy fit!  That's a really lofty goal/restriction in that habitat, but in the South probably wouldn't even make a stir.  There is more agriculture and what not so the nutrition is that much better.  MN would be much the same in my estimation.

[jbekes]

We have the antler restriction in some counties in MO also. A buck has to have 4 points on on side to be able to be killed. And like DS said hunters in the central and northern part of the state think it is a good rule because now it gives those younger bucks a chance to mature anouther year. But in the southern parts of the state they hate the rule because they don't have the agriculture and resources for the deer to grow to reach any size.

[charlie 01]

You think 4 pts. or better is something, there were some public hunting areas here in Ill. that the buck had to have 5 pts or better on a side to take. Thats something to ponder. Can you imagine, getting up at 4 AM, going there, putting up a tree stand and have a giant 8 pt walk by close enough for an easy shot? I don't know if I could abide by that. Besides, I do a lot of shed hunting, and find some deer never get beyond 8 pts. I just can't figure their reasoning on the 5 pt rule. I'm not sure if this rule is still in effect, it started some years ago, and I haven't checked back on it. I don't mind the 4 pt or better on one side, thats doable. Although I have several 4&5 pt sheds that will fit in the palm of your hand. They are far from grown up deer. At one time, I read were there was talk of inside spread restrictions. Now that would bother me. 

[Everyday Hunter]

ORIGINAL: charlie 01

You think 4 pts. or better is something, there were some public hunting areas here in Ill. that the buck had to have 5 pts or better on a side to take. Thats something to ponder. Can you imagine, getting up at 4 AM, going there, putting up a tree stand and have a giant 8 pt walk by close enough for an easy shot? I don't know if I could abide by that. Besides, I do a lot of shed hunting, and find some deer never get beyond 8 pts. I just can't figure their reasoning on the 5 pt rule. I'm not sure if this rule is still in effect, it started some years ago, and I haven't checked back on it. I don't mind the 4 pt or better on one side, thats doable. Although I have several 4&5 pt sheds that will fit in the palm of your hand. They are far from grown up deer. At one time, I read were there was talk of inside spread restrictions. Now that would bother me.

5 points or better to a side? Are you sure? I've never heard of that. Are you sure it's not 5 points total (3 x 2)? That would be the same as we have in Pennsylvania in 3-point areas, meaning 3 to a side.

I guess I'd just like to see where that is the rule. I looked through the Illinios Hunting & Trapping Digest, but couldn't find it.

Steve

[dtrain56]

Could this have possiblyy been a hunt club..i doubt they would have 5 pts on a side for public land condidering a lot of deer will not grow more than a 4 pt on a side rack.


now i can really say to much because i do not knoe illinios very well just the rumors of 200 class deer .

[SwampLife]

ORIGINAL: nromn

I have a question about these antler restrictions. I hunt in SW mn on public land and every yearling I have ever shot (in my younger days)has had 4 pts on at least 1 side and I would say 70% of the yearlings I have seen would also meet those qualifications.

So to me it seems like with those restrictions, the young guys with superior genetics are still able to be harvested in the first year, while the yearlings with worse genetics are allowed to live until the next year (and pass on their genes) .

Read these:

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/se ... deer/11949 (read the two articles under 'Antler Restrictions'.)

http://www.lhup.edu/smarvel/seminar/fal ... s_2/pa.htm

http://qdmworks.wordpress.com/2010/10/1 ... comment-82

This is more about not culling spikes but also shows why High grading is not an issue with APR's:
http://www.northamericanwhitetail.com/d ... cull_1206/

This one is not so much about APR's but it shows you why having more adult bucks(the goal of APR's) is important for more bucks with larger racks:
http://qdmworks.wordpress.com/2010/08/1 ... /#more-258

Just a good read about PA:
http://www.northamericanwhitetail.com/h ... W_0907_10/

Long story short is that a bucks first set of antlers do not indicate his 'genetic potential'.