Last day buck??

Discuss Quality Deer Management issues here!
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spottedskunk
 
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RE: Last day buck??

Postby spottedskunk » Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:24 am

ORIGINAL: JPH

ORIGINAL: spottedskunk

The reason I brung this up is to see if you all practice QDM. If you don't thats cool, did not mean to step on anyone's toes here and make them feel like they should take mature bucks only. Thats the way I hunt and always will. Its the trophy in the eyes of the beholder, I support deer hunting in every way shape or form. I hope I didn't upset anyone, I thought this was a great topic to bring up.


'scool spotedskunk. I agree that this is a good conversation and I think you are bringing a lot into it. But I want to challenge you with a few questions.

You state that you "take mature bucks only". How mature are we talking here? Earlier you said that bucks in the 3 year range are on your "hit list". Biologically speaking, 3.5 year old bucks are not fully mature, so how and why do you arrive at this decision?

Secondly you said, "Thats the way I hunt and always will." I don't know how old you are but that could be a long time. Could you envision a time when you might change and take a younger buck, stop taking bucks or hold out for an older one? I can think of a lot of scenarios that would alter my buck harvest goals.

Finally (and understand that I am QDMer myself), if someone chooses to kill bucks of a younger age class than what you target, are they automatically no longer doing QDM?



Mature bucks in my opinion is a 4 year old or older. Maybe 5, to me a mature buck is when he is done growing. There are some bucks out there that won't grow after its third year. I really could care less about points and scores. I would love to be a PY or Boone N Crockett, scorer so I can score em better in the stand, but points and scores don't matter.

Second Question: I don't know if I will ever change, in my opinion a old wise buck is a whole different deer. They get big and get to an old age for a reason. For the last two years I've been buckless. To me, its more of a challenge to go out and hunt for those old bucks. But thats my opinion. Could I see myself change for a younger buck, maybe. I won't say yes or no.

When I have kids, they can shoot whatever they want, they can make the decision on what they want to shoot. Like I said, the trophy is in the eyes of the beholder.

The 3rd question is a little broad. In certain areas of the country, QDM is different in each and every other state. I don't think its the same in each area. QDM to me is allowing those three year olds to walk one or two more years. In other areas it might be taking out several does. Other areas it might be taking out the management bucks. It all differs where you hunt. QDM to me in my part of the woods I hunt is taking out a few does, to keep those young buck fawns in the area, then to also get those bucks up and moving. I know most of you know that if you have to many does, bucks won't travel at all to find a hot doe. They won't have to travel far.

JPH, I apologize, guess I typed it wrong, but yes a 3-3.5 year old is what I tend to pass up.

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ranwin33
 
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RE: Last day buck??

Postby ranwin33 » Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:56 am

ORIGINAL: Goose
I say you shoot what ever you are happy with, as long as it is legal of course.
The mentality of telling other people what to shoot is what needs to be changed. Who are we to judge what other people are happy with? It all comes down to a personal choice and we as fellow hunters have to respect that.
Just my 2 cents....

ORIGINAL: Goose
....Don't get me wrong, I attend a lot of seminars and do enjoy them, but I would rather talk to the old neighbor next door to us and listen to what he has to say.

I'll wade in here and take an unpopular view.  I'd have to disagree with both these statements. 
 
There is something to be said for setting standards and the "if it's brown it's down" idea of hunting isn't much of a standard.  So IMHO, people shooting button bucks, spikes, fawns, etc. need to take another look at what they're doing.  Sometimes it needs to go beyond what makes you happy.
 
As to listening to the old neighbor down the road, that's all well and good, but you'll probably get a better education from books than you will from him.  For example the number of people I've run into who still believe you shouldn't be shooting does because it will hurt deer numbers goes up rapidly as the person's age increases. 
“There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace.”
Aldo Leopold

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Goose
 
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RE: Last day buck??

Postby Goose » Mon Aug 10, 2009 10:46 am

Everybody has the right to their own opinion and I respect yours.
That being said, I do not believe that unless you own the land you have any right to tell people what to shoot or what they should be happy with. If they take a deer that they are happy with, for what ever reason, and they did so legally, who are you or I to judge them for that?
Education is a good thing and I agree with you on that, but I believe that when you start pushing standards on people because YOU feel it is right, you are taking the enjoyment out of it for them. If you come to the point where you want to go to the next level or whatever you want to call it, then thats a personal choice and we have a right to that.
Thats why I think and believe that it is a personal choice. 
Do I think that 1.5's should not be shot? Yes, but I have no right to tell other people not to shoot them because I would like to shoot a bigger racked buck.
No matter what anybody says or how many articles I read, the 1.5's I killed when I was younger are still some of the best memories I have as a hunter. I have no right to take that away from other new hunters or even older hunters for that matter.
By telling somebody that they cannot shoot a button buck or a 1.5 you are restricting their right.
Believe me, I am a very passionate conservationist (in my own mind anyways) and I put a lot of work and time into trying to help the deer have good forage year round, educate myself, and shoot what is right for the local deer herd, but I don't think I have any right to tell people what they should be happy with when it comes to killing a legal deer.
Honestly I hope I never do.
 
I have learned that I can read and listen to seminars until I am blue in the face but that still will not teach me how to run a tractor properly or the implements it uses. It will not teach me when to plant in our local. It will not teach me that the deer are over here this time of year because Al over there always over hunts that area and spooks the deer out of there.
Or that Jim on the other side of us is having his pines logged starting in August, ect...........
One thing reading and listening to seminars has taught me is that some of your best information will come from local mail carriers or farmers.
 
Jake

Genesis 27:3 Take your bow and quiver full of arrows out into the open country, and hunt some wild game.....

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spottedskunk
 
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RE: Last day buck??

Postby spottedskunk » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:56 pm

ORIGINAL: Goose

Everybody has the right to their own opinion and I respect yours.
That being said, I do not believe that unless you own the land you have any right to tell people what to shoot or what they should be happy with. If they take a deer that they are happy with, for what ever reason, and they did so legally, who are you or I to judge them for that?
Education is a good thing and I agree with you on that, but I believe that when you start pushing standards on people because YOU feel it is right, you are taking the enjoyment out of it for them. If you come to the point where you want to go to the next level or whatever you want to call it, then thats a personal choice and we have a right to that.
Thats why I think and believe that it is a personal choice. 
Do I think that 1.5's should not be shot? Yes, but I have no right to tell other people not to shoot them because I would like to shoot a bigger racked buck.
No matter what anybody says or how many articles I read, the 1.5's I killed when I was younger are still some of the best memories I have as a hunter. I have no right to take that away from other new hunters or even older hunters for that matter.
By telling somebody that they cannot shoot a button buck or a 1.5 you are restricting their right.
Believe me, I am a very passionate conservationist (in my own mind anyways) and I put a lot of work and time into trying to help the deer have good forage year round, educate myself, and shoot what is right for the local deer herd, but I don't think I have any right to tell people what they should be happy with when it comes to killing a legal deer.
Honestly I hope I never do.

I have learned that I can read and listen to seminars until I am blue in the face but that still will not teach me how to run a tractor properly or the implements it uses. It will not teach me when to plant in our local. It will not teach me that the deer are over here this time of year because Al over there always over hunts that area and spooks the deer out of there.
Or that Jim on the other side of us is having his pines logged starting in August, ect...........
One thing reading and listening to seminars has taught me is that some of your best information will come from local mail carriers or farmers.




I agree. I believe taking any deer with gun or bow is an accomplishment.

msbadger
 
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RE: Last day buck??

Postby msbadger » Mon Aug 10, 2009 12:57 pm

Ranwin....OK ...ok heres a clarification that the doe hunters need to under stand...shooting doe can hurt the deer population if done improperly...thats fact.....
Herds have structure and it starts with the matriarch doe and the family unit...fact....When on your little piece of heaven are shooting a good number of doe and you don't realize "Joe" next door is doing the same...bye the way most properties have 4 sides ...you run the risk of taking out an entire family group...do you know the experts estimate it can take up to 5+ years to get another good family structure back into the area ...so the problem is ...as I have actually seen it...that hunters don't look far enough past the ( lack of better term)hype and see the whole picture...now add in bad weather and preditor explosion and you have a real problem....Oh...what NYDEC has experianced a few times...Oh and right now in some areas...aaahh but never mind ..I'm some old woman living in the hills....lol

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JPH
 
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RE: Last day buck??

Postby JPH » Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:28 am

ORIGINAL: Goose

Everybody has the right to their own opinion and I respect yours.
That being said, I do not believe that unless you own the land you have any right to tell people what to shoot or what they should be happy with. If they take a deer that they are happy with, for what ever reason, and they did so legally, who are you or I to judge them for that?
Education is a good thing and I agree with you on that, but I believe that when you start pushing standards on people because YOU feel it is right, you are taking the enjoyment out of it for them. If you come to the point where you want to go to the next level or whatever you want to call it, then thats a personal choice and we have a right to that.
Thats why I think and believe that it is a personal choice. 
Do I think that 1.5's should not be shot? Yes, but I have no right to tell other people not to shoot them because I would like to shoot a bigger racked buck.
No matter what anybody says or how many articles I read, the 1.5's I killed when I was younger are still some of the best memories I have as a hunter. I have no right to take that away from other new hunters or even older hunters for that matter.
By telling somebody that they cannot shoot a button buck or a 1.5 you are restricting their right.
Believe me, I am a very passionate conservationist (in my own mind anyways) and I put a lot of work and time into trying to help the deer have good forage year round, educate myself, and shoot what is right for the local deer herd, but I don't think I have any right to tell people what they should be happy with when it comes to killing a legal deer.
Honestly I hope I never do.

I have learned that I can read and listen to seminars until I am blue in the face but that still will not teach me how to run a tractor properly or the implements it uses. It will not teach me when to plant in our local. It will not teach me that the deer are over here this time of year because Al over there always over hunts that area and spooks the deer out of there.
Or that Jim on the other side of us is having his pines logged starting in August, ect...........
One thing reading and listening to seminars has taught me is that some of your best information will come from local mail carriers or farmers.



Excellent post! I agree 100%. If yearlings are legal, then yearlings are a legitimate target for the hunter who wants to fill his/her tag that way. Might education and experience move that hunter to a point that they would prefer to watch yearlings walk? I hope so, but until it is law we have to be happy for them. They are doing exactly what I was doing 15 years ago!

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JPH
 
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RE: Last day buck??

Postby JPH » Tue Aug 11, 2009 1:30 am

ORIGINAL: msbadger

Ranwin....OK ...ok heres a clarification that the doe hunters need to under stand...shooting doe can hurt the deer population if done improperly...thats fact.....
Herds have structure and it starts with the matriarch doe and the family unit...fact....When on your little piece of heaven are shooting a good number of doe and you don't realize "Joe" next door is doing the same...bye the way most properties have 4 sides ...you run the risk of taking out an entire family group...do you know the experts estimate it can take up to 5+ years to get another good family structure back into the area ...so the problem is ...as I have actually seen it...that hunters don't look far enough past the ( lack of better term)hype and see the whole picture...now add in bad weather and preditor explosion and you have a real problem....Oh...what NYDEC has experianced a few times...Oh and right now in some areas...aaahh but never mind ..I'm some old woman living in the hills....lol


Agreed msbadger! I have over harvested does before and hurt the herd/hunting in my area. The only way to really understand your impact is to be a steward and student of the herd.Doe harvest is important, but it is not always simple.

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ranwin33
 
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RE: Last day buck??

Postby ranwin33 » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:15 am

ORIGINAL: Goose
...Do I think that 1.5's should not be shot? Yes, but I have no right to tell other people not to shoot them because I would like to shoot a bigger racked buck.

...One thing reading and listening to seminars has taught me is that some of your best information will come from local mail carriers or farmers.

I would agree that none of has a "right" to tell other people not to shoot a legal deer, particularly if the reason is that we want to shoot a bigger racked buck.  But I would argue that we have an obligation to educate other hunters, and part of that obligation is to set a standard that benefits the animals we shoot.  That being said, I stand by my statement that sometimes we need to go beyond what makes us happy.  I will also add that simply because it is legal, does not necessarily make it right - we don't have to look any further than the current recession to see that.
 
As to locals providing good information, I will also stand by my statement that you are much better off reading and studying than listening to the local lore if you truly want to do QDM.  This is not to say that there isn't some good information out there provided by farmers, etc., but when listening to it I would suggest comparing what you hear with what you know and read.
 
msbadger
Ranwin....OK ...ok heres a clarification that the doe hunters need to under stand...shooting doe can hurt the deer population if done improperly...thats fact...

I would disagree that shooting does can hurt the deer population, I would agree that over hunting them will, but in many locales that would be difficult to do.  And if we are responsibly only shooting what we need, and not what we can, then in all liklihood it will not happen.
 
JPH
...but until it is law we have to be happy for them.

I have difficulty with this bit of logic.  Maybe for a new hunter or a hunter who has not been successful, but not for the hunter who has been doing it for awhile. 
 
To me this logic equates to saying, hey what the banks and mortgage companies were doing was legal, so let's be happy they helped wreck the economy.  Or hey, what the oil companies and speculators were doing was legal so let's be happy we were paying $4 a gallon for gas. 
 
Legal and right are two different things - and I don't have to be happy for them when what they are legally doing is not necessarily the right thing to do.
“There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace.”
Aldo Leopold

msbadger
 
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RE: Last day buck??

Postby msbadger » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:01 am

Well perhaps this ...no... lets be sarcastic here...When I'm out "hunting" doe...Oh and I do hunt them...based on real world /area needs...not the info from a magazine or article written by someone 2000 or so miles away...I'm not out there with a live trap....I actually need to "shoot" them

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ranwin33
 
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RE: Last day buck??

Postby ranwin33 » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:07 am

ORIGINAL: msbadger

Well perhaps this ...no... lets be sarcastic here...When I'm out "hunting" doe...Oh and I do hunt them...based on real world /area needs...not the info from a magazine or article written by someone 2000 or so miles away...I'm not out there with a live trap....I actually need to "shoot" them

What?
“There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace.”
Aldo Leopold

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