Last day buck??

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JPH
 
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RE: Last day buck??

Postby JPH » Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:39 am

ORIGINAL: ranwin33
...In Missouri I can get unlimited tags and shoot as many does as I please, legally.  But it being legal, doesn't make it right for me to then go out and shoot ten or twenty does knowing I would never eat all that meat and it would spoil in my freezer....


Nope, because you would then be guilty of wanton waste, which is illegal.

By the way, will someone please explain why killing fawns is wrong? I'm not getting that one. How does shooting a doe fawn differ from shooting a yearling doe?

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ranwin33
 
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RE: Last day buck??

Postby ranwin33 » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:09 pm

ORIGINAL: JPH
Nope, because you would then be guilty of wanton waste, which is illegal.

By the way, will someone please explain why killing fawns is wrong? I'm not getting that one. How does shooting a doe fawn differ from shooting a yearling doe?

Where does it say in the Missouri game laws that wanton waste is illegal. Not to argue the point, and not saying it isn't in the laws, I just can't remember reading it in them. I know some states have these laws, but don't recall it for Missouri. And not to belabor the point, but even those wanton waste laws in other states do not necessarily apply to the scenario presented.

But to give you your point about wanton waste, I can give all twenty of the does to charity, it's still wrong as my taking twenty does damages the herd. And that is not illegal, just wrong.

My perception as to why killing fawns is wrong, is the same as to why killing young bucks is wrong. It's too easy, these animals have yet to benefit the herd, and you may by accident kill a buck fawn. Plus what's the purpose of killing it, to get 20 pounds of meat? So you aren't killing it because it's going to fill your freezer, you're not killing it because they're just so darn difficult to hunt, the only reason that comes to my mind is you've just got a desire to kill something and if that's why you're hunting you should probably find something else to do. What is it that Dr. Saxton Pope said: "The true hunter counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport." There isn't much effort involved in killing a fawn, or for that matter a young buck - it's pretty easy in my part of the woods and not all that fair.
“There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace.”
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JPH
 
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RE: Last day buck??

Postby JPH » Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:02 pm

ORIGINAL: ranwin33

ORIGINAL: JPH
Nope, because you would then be guilty of wanton waste, which is illegal.

By the way, will someone please explain why killing fawns is wrong? I'm not getting that one. How does shooting a doe fawn differ from shooting a yearling doe?

Where does it say in the Missouri game laws that wanton waste is illegal. Not to argue the point, and not saying it isn't in the laws, I just can't remember reading it in them. I know some states have these laws, but don't recall it for Missouri. And not to belabor the point, but even those wanton waste laws in other states do not necessarily apply to the scenario presented.

But to give you your point about wanton waste, I can give all twenty of the does to charity, it's still wrong as my taking twenty does damages the herd. And that is not illegal, just wrong.

My perception as to why killing fawns is wrong, is the same as to why killing young bucks is wrong. It's too easy, these animals have yet to benefit the herd, and you may by accident kill a buck fawn. Plus what's the purpose of killing it, to get 20 pounds of meat? So you aren't killing it because it's going to fill your freezer, you're not killing it because they're just so darn difficult to hunt, the only reason that comes to my mind is you've just got a desire to kill something and if that's why you're hunting you should probably find something else to do. What is it that Dr. Saxton Pope said: "The true hunter counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport." There isn't much effort involved in killing a fawn, or for that matter a young buck - it's pretty easy in my part of the woods and not all that fair.


Okay, on the wanton waste issue, I will admit that I cannot take you directly to where it says that in Missouri code. I know it is in Iowa's but I sometimes blur the lines because I hunt both states. I suspect it is illegal in Missouri but I cannot prove it right now.

Now on killing fawns, I totally disagree! I'll take it point by point.

Too easy? I thought it was about the good of the herd. If a deer comes easily, I should not shoot it? What if I wear bells on my shoes, then would it be okay?

What do you mean by "yet to benefit the herd"? Isn't population control beneficial to the herd? How does leaving one more hungry mouth in the field for an entire year, only to kill it for population control as a yearling a benefit? 

You ask, "what's the purpose of killing it?" Well for me the purpose is to keep the herd on my little property within the optimal carrying capacity, while not making a significant disruption in the family groups using it. The meat is one heck of a bonus. You may poo-poo the poundage, but I am pretty happy with the loins, straps and roasts that come from little does.

As for the suggestion that I am merely a killer and ought to find something else to do with my time is pretty offensive to me. Oh well, I guess you have to have a thick skin around here. 

"Not much effort in killing a fawn"? I guess I consider being a year round steward of the land and student of the herd effort enough. I also consider day after day of pre-dawn wake ups, frozen toes, and tedious hours on stand effort enough. Squeezing a trigger? Yeah that's easy (on fawns of 6 year old bucks).


 

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ranwin33
 
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RE: Last day buck??

Postby ranwin33 » Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:26 pm

As I said, it's my perception as to why killing a fawn is not the right thing to do - it is what works for me. You're more than welcome to have a different opinion - no harm done. Me personally, I can't see any reason to do it.

To your points:

Maintaining carrying capacity without disrupting the family group. Given the number of does in our area, you could take several without worry of disrupting the family group. So I'm not buying that one. I think you'd have a better chance of shooting a buck fawn than disrupting a family group.

Trying to equate what you do on your place with part of the effort of killing a fawn is also a pretty long stretch. You're not doing it to kill fawns, you're doing it to develop your herd as part of a conservation effort. But if you are going to try to equate the difficulty and effort in hunting a fawn with that of hunting a 160 class, 5 year old buck, I'm willing to listen?

And my apologies at the merely a killer statement - I realized at the time it might be over the line and no personal insult was intended. I know you're better than that.

Finally I will say this, if you come by my place this Fall and I see a fawn in the bed of your truck, I will give you a ration of grief. And you can do the same back.
“There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace.”
Aldo Leopold

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RE: Last day buck??

Postby schlupis » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:51 pm

ORIGINAL: ranwin33

ORIGINAL: buckhunter21
...
Also, I don't think we can compare this whole scenario to the mortgage industry.  How does predatory lending have anything to do with this?  Obviously what they were doing was wrong...More of a fact than an opinion I would say. 

The example was used to demonstrate that being legal does not equate to being the right thing to do.

Let me use another, more relevant example.  In Missouri I can get unlimited tags and shoot as many does as I please, legally.  But it being legal, doesn't make it right for me to then go out and shoot ten or twenty does knowing I would never eat all that meat and it would spoil in my freezer. It would not be right for me to do that even if I was willing to give all the meat to some needy charity. Because killing that many does in a relatively small area would damage the herd.  Additionally I would not expect to be congratulated for killing those ten or twenty does, given the poor conservation effort and waste they now represent. 

Shooting those 10 to 20 does may be legal, but it's not right, and that is what I mean about setting higher standards.  It may be legal to shoot a fawn, button buck, spike, etc. but that does not make it right, and those of us who are experienced hunters should be willing to hold ourselves to higher standards if we truly want to consider ourselves sportsmen.

That's just my take on it.

 
 
This is a great post ranwin33 I have seen this happen a lot in Wisconsin with the unlimited tag senario. You get guys who just are out there to kill deer because they have tags in their pockets. I had to control myself last year when I talked to a guy who laughing it up while telling me and a few others how he killed 22 deer on his farm last year. My only response to him was and I quote Its stupid F-ers like you, are the reason we dont see any deer anymore. He responded by saying hey the DNR is going to keep giving out tags then I am going to keep shooting deer. again its legal but not right, because his killing of every deer he saw young and old effected the woods I was hunting in aswell. I am sorry 22 deer from any area is a big hit to any deer herd.

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RE: Last day buck??

Postby ranwin33 » Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:55 am

ORIGINAL: schlupis

This is a great post ranwin33 I have seen this happen a lot in Wisconsin with the unlimited tag senario. You get guys who just are out there to kill deer because they have tags in their pockets. I had to control myself last year when I talked to a guy who laughing it up while telling me and a few others how he killed 22 deer on his farm last year. My only response to him was and I quote Its stupid F-ers like you, are the reason we dont see any deer anymore. He responded by saying hey the DNR is going to keep giving out tags then I am going to keep shooting deer. again its legal but not right, because his killing of every deer he saw young and old effected the woods I was hunting in aswell. I am sorry 22 deer from any area is a big hit to any deer herd.

Thanks, and I would have loved to have seen his face when you said that too him. 
 
It takes a lot of guts to do what you did, and isn't nearly so easy as laughing along with him and then stewing about it later. 
“There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace.”
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doe assassin
 
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RE: Last day buck??

Postby doe assassin » Thu Aug 13, 2009 4:06 am

ORIGINAL: ranwin33

Depends upon what the "lesser" buck is.

It always bothers me when people start saying things like "lesser buck" or "isn't a quality buck".  These are pretty subjective qualities, so one man's trophy may be something else another man wouldn't shoot.   And what makes a buck not a quality buck?

I'd rather here you say would you shoot a young deer with a small rack cause it's the last day of the season or would you eat your tag, then defining deer as lesser or low quality.



Fully agree with you, couldnt have said it better
I do my grocery shopping in the woods.

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RE: Last day buck??

Postby OHhunter » Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:24 am

ORIGINAL: ranwin33

There isn't much effort involved in killing a fawn, or for that matter a young buck - it's pretty easy in my part of the woods and not all that fair.


I would argue that we have an obligation to educate other hunters, and part of that obligation is to set a standard that benefits the animals we shoot. 


If we are trying to educate hunter's to do what best benefits the animal, why not shoot fawns?

*They generally make up the largest age class (more mouths to feed)

*They are most supsectable to predation and severe weather.

*There are usually more fawns surviving to the next season than are needed to replace adult mortality. 

*They are normally bred later in the winter, giving thier offspring a disadvantage, both nutritionally and in body size heading into the winter.

I have yet to read or talk to a biologist that says shooting fawns is bad for the herd.  I agree we need to educate, but we need to do so based on scientific research and  proven findings, not on " what works for me" or a don't want to shoot bambi issue.
Brad

HUNT HARD, SHOOT STRAIGHT, CLEAN KILL APOLOGIZE TO NO ONE

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JPH
 
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RE: Last day buck??

Postby JPH » Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:49 am

ORIGINAL: ranwin33

Maintaining carrying capacity without disrupting the family group. Given the number of does in our area, you could take several without worry of disrupting the family group. So I'm not buying that one.

 
I do take does of various age classes at a rate of about 2-3 a year but I have seen the loss of a dominant, old doe throw off the deer behavior on my little 35 acres for several years. This idea is backed up by a number of articles that have appeared in D&DH. You may not buy it but I'd ventre I know my property and the deer on it better than you do.

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RE: Last day buck??

Postby JPH » Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:54 am

ORIGINAL: ranwin33

Trying to equate what you do on your place with part of the effort of killing a fawn is also a pretty long stretch. You're not doing it to kill fawns, you're doing it to develop your herd as part of a conservation effort. But if you are going to try to equate the difficulty and effort in hunting a fawn with that of hunting a 160 class, 5 year old buck, I'm willing to listen?



Killing fawns IS part of my conservation effort!

I have killed two 160 class bucks with archery. Both deer died within 30 minutes of the first time I had ever seen them. I killed those deer due to equal parts of stand placement, playing the wind, dillegence, and luck. These happen to be the exact same things I have used to kill fawns. Yes the thrill was greater and I had to work to control my nerves with the bigger deer, but the degree of diffaculty was the same.

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