Do You Think the QDM Bubble has Burst?

Discuss Quality Deer Management issues here!
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ShoulderNuke!
 
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RE: Do You Think the QDM Bubble has Burst?

Postby ShoulderNuke! » Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:31 pm

Yip after 35 years of deer hunting a man should learn a few things and one of them is , if you as an individual hunter had better have a place that you hunt that the doe herd gets a pass for the most part from all who hunt there until well after the rut and if numbers are not a problem on your ground due to off the land hunting then you can have all the bucks you want with just a few hundred acres of the right property make up . And I have few small pieces of ground far far removed from my buck ground as in several miles away that I go pop a doe or two a year on for the heck of it . Funny them properties rarely produce a decent buck ever ?? Humm I wonder what brought me to my conclusion . Some times hands off with very low pressure prior to the heat up of the rut is exactly what yields the area you hunt biggest bucks year after year.
35 years of hunting deer and more than I can count down and I still learn something new every year! There are no absalutes with Deer or in Deer hunting

cookin
 
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RE: Do You Think the QDM Bubble has Burst?

Postby cookin » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:46 pm

I like what QDM has done for us in my area of Louisiana. St Helena Parish to pin point it just a little more. This Parish is a Pine tree producer, so hunting and managing deer is a little harded for this part of the country. A timber company by the name of Soterra, implmented the QDM program on all of its properties. The Properties are scattered through out the parish. And all of the reports thats are coming in now after three years look very good. The average Buck height and antler size has improved greatly. So is it wrong for me to believe that it can work. Maybe we should look at what is working and how it's working and pass it on to our fellow hunters. I hope the bubble doesn't burst.

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Gulfcapt
 
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RE: Do You Think the QDM Bubble has Burst?

Postby Gulfcapt » Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:49 am

This is one mans apinion to QDM era! We as hunter are missing the huge picture of QDM. Yes for many it was to build great antlers/racks on a even greater size body deer. To give land owner/leaser's Pride and satisfaction on a goal that they had set for themselves, and the deer herds that surrounds and roams the properties. With that said, and alot more that could of been said. Anyone that has invested time, sweat, money in somesort of QDM, or QLM, has seen the fruits of their labor, no matter how big or small. you help the Deer herds with nutrients and nutrition with what you planted/grown on your land.... And yes after a spring/summer/fall, growing/fatting season, they might find their way nextdoor,and even become someone else's trophy. But to say that the QDM bubble bursted or past its prime.... No... maybe a tint of frustration in it. But still holds alot of air!! thank you mike.haglund@gmail.com

msbadger
 
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RE: Do You Think the QDM Bubble has Burst?

Postby msbadger » Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:19 am

 First welcome to the BB Gulfcapt....Let me say I can agree with you for this reason...That my original statement that the bubble has burst but the bye product of QLM is up and living well is clear in your post....You never mentioned racks...Big old bucks...shooting numerous doe...ect ect....You only spoke of the health ...planting and growing...nutritional health of a herd.....As little as a year ago when QDM was mentioned the biggest part of many post was the size and age of buck...going out and thinning the doe and not plotting so much for herd health as to attract and KEEP them BIG Boys around...So in my humble opinion...they be better off revamping their name to QLM....reaping the benefit of getting more ppl on board. 

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JPH
 
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RE: Do You Think the QDM Bubble has Burst?

Postby JPH » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:52 am

ORIGINAL: msbadger

As little as a year ago when QDM was mentioned the biggest part of many post was the size and age of buck...going out and thinning the doe and not plotting so much for herd health as to attract and KEEP them BIG Boys around.


Really? I guess I don't remember that being the the focus of many posts at all. Are you talking about posts on this forum?

msbadger
 
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RE: Do You Think the QDM Bubble has Burst?

Postby msbadger » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:40 am

  Image JPH...this was from here and other sites..... but.... the 3 passages were taken from THIS site and the last of those 3 was a Paragraph from one of your posts







I have heard about this and in fact just read a article in north american whitetail (october issue)written by les davenport called the 200 inch zone. in the article i gather that hunters who want to harvest bigger deer should aggresivly harvest does.. If you dont kill some does there will be to much compatition for food and bucks cant grow to their potential. This is why I and the guys I hunt with have planted food plots to help with nutrition for the deer and have started a aggresive doe killing program.. We want to take 6 -8 does off our 200 acres this year... Maybe we can kill a 200 incher here one of these years....



I'm passing up young bucks everyyear, the problem is getting the surrounding properties to click with QDM. All I can do is hope someday I'll see the bucks I pass now grow into older age class deer. Maybe if I have enough cover for the bucks to hide in, the hunting pressure will help them stay hid during the daylight. More like wishful thinking, but we do harvest a few booners around here anyway.


The basic harvest concept of QDM is to increase the doe harvest and to protect most yearling bucks. This in  reduces the overall population and allows a much greater number of bucks to reach 2.5-4.5 years of age. When that happens, the physical burden of breeding falls on bucks that are physically up to the task and it occurs in a shorter period of time. The biological benifit of the "intense rut" is that fawns drop at the right time, and thus carry more body weight into the next winter.

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Cut N Run
 
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RE: Do You Think the QDM Bubble has Burst?

Postby Cut N Run » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:03 am

Even though the guys I hunt with have self-imposed size restrictions on the size of bucks we take, the neighboring properties shoot anything with a bone on his head. Sad, but true.  Our property is small, but if enough places allow bucks to mature and take more does out, it can't hurt the herd.
 
A friend of mine in Virginia (who unfortunately passed away a few years ago) owned just over 1,000 acres and strictly managed his land for QDM. He worked very hard on getting as close to an even buck/doe ratio as possible.  He wouldn't allow bucks under 5 & 1/2 years of age to be taken. He kept records of the number of does they saw each year and took a number of them according to what they saw.  The results were nothing short of astonishing.  Most of the buck's antlers he & his hunting buddy took were 160 inches plus and their body weight went up, the weight of the does all went up, and the fawn survival rate was quite good.  It was a huge turn-around from what the herd was like before he started managing the deer on his land.
 
Put that up against a herd that is not properly managed, and the results speak for themselves. QDM is a valuable tool in helping a deer herd improve. I seriously hope the bubble is not close to bursting.
 
Jim
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Everyday Hunter
 
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RE: Do You Think the QDM Bubble has Burst?

Postby Everyday Hunter » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:04 am

I have no dog in this fight, but I have to say that only the first quote talks about harvesting does in order to reduce the competition for food so that bucks grow bigger. 

The second and third posts talk about not harvesting younger bucks so that bucks get older. This frees the herd from being dominated by yearling bucks. The second quote says nothing about an aggressive doe harvest.

Does the third fit this description:
ORIGINAL: msbadger

As little as a year ago when QDM was mentioned the biggest part of many post was the size and age of buck...going out and thinning the doe and not plotting so much for herd health as to attract and KEEP them BIG Boys around....

The third quote does in fact talk about harvesting does in the context of herd health -- "When that happens, the physical burden of breeding falls on bucks that are physically up to the task and it occurs in a shorter period of time. The biological benifit of the 'intense rut' is that fawns drop at the right time, and thus carry more body weight into the next winter." References to the physical burden of breeding and the timing of the fawn drop are clearly about herd health. And it says nothing about planting food plots in order to keep the big boys around.

I don't always agree with JPH, but if the third quote is his, it doesn't bit the description. Actually, only the first quote fits it. And it's hard to base much on that one because the writer's comments are in reference to an article he read -- which he may or may not have understood correctly.

The real reason for an aggressive doe harvest is to allow the habitat to better support the population of deer and all species that share their habitat. QDM doesn't say that you should always have an aggressive doe harvest. There's a thing called "carrying capacity." Once the doe harvest has brought the deer herd into balance with the habitat, the doe harvest can be reduced to a point where the overall deer population remains level.

While I'm at it, I might as well say that QDM practitioners who know what they're doing don't plant food plots in order to keep big bucks around. They plant food plots in order to provide nutrition year 'round, even during the seasons when otherwise the deer have a hard time. Also, Alsheimer wrote an article a year or two ago saying that you can't "stockpile" bucks. They will go where they want to go, especially during the rut, and most properties aren't large enough to keep bucks from roaming.

Steve
When the Everyday Hunter isn't hunting, he's thinking about hunting, talking about hunting, dreaming about hunting, writing about hunting, or wishing he were hunting.
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msbadger
 
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RE: Do You Think the QDM Bubble has Burst?

Postby msbadger » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:49 am

 Everyday Hunter there's no dog fight here on my part...he asked a ? to a comment I made and will stand behind...I quickly went through and found these 3 in response...there are many more....I my be getting older but I'm not senile...I know what I've read from guys here and on other forums....which is why you have read me saying numerous times.... I think that the doe shooting part of QDM is over board...I don't have time to just sit at the PC to go through old posts...I happen to glance at it when I'm in on a break for water of what not....this is why I post so many pics lord help you if you can't thoroughly back up what you say and I have no problem with that....It has just been with in the last several months I've noticed a slow change of getting the big boys to grow ....taking a bunch of doe.... to guys talking about improving their lands in general
I prefer to improve my lands and pick what ever deer I take for what ever reasons come forth at the moment...I don't do QDM...I practice QLM...that is why when the DEC talks about low turkey #'s I see this...or coming from all that deep snow we had I see this

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JPH
 
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RE: Do You Think the QDM Bubble has Burst?

Postby JPH » Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:59 am

ORIGINAL: msbadger

  Image JPH...this was from here and other sites..... but.... the 3 passages were taken from THIS site and the last of those 3 was a Paragraph from one of your posts

I have heard about this and in fact just read a article in north american whitetail (october issue)written by les davenport called the 200 inch zone. in the article i gather that hunters who want to harvest bigger deer should aggresivly harvest does.. If you dont kill some does there will be to much compatition for food and bucks cant grow to their potential. This is why I and the guys I hunt with have planted food plots to help with nutrition for the deer and have started a aggresive doe killing program.. We want to take 6 -8 does off our 200 acres this year... Maybe we can kill a 200 incher here one of these years....

I'm passing up young bucks everyyear, the problem is getting the surrounding properties to click with QDM. All I can do is hope someday I'll see the bucks I pass now grow into older age class deer. Maybe if I have enough cover for the bucks to hide in, the hunting pressure will help them stay hid during the daylight. More like wishful thinking, but we do harvest a few booners around here anyway.

[color="#ff0000"]The basic harvest concept of QDM is to increase the doe harvest and to protect most yearling bucks. This in  reduces the overall population and allows a much greater number of bucks to reach 2.5-4.5 years of age. When that happens, the physical burden of breeding falls on bucks that are physically up to the task and it occurs in a shorter period of time. The biological benifit of the "intense rut" is that fawns drop at the right time, and thus carry more body weight into the next winter.[/color]


msbadger, our QDM board has nearly 2,000 posts. I never said that there was not a "trophy hunting" mentality represented in this community. I just think it is a small minority.

As for the final quote, highlighted in red. I do not remember making that exact post, but it sounds like something I would say. In fact if it's not my post, I wish it were. I appreciate Everyday Hunter for supporting the notion that those statements are based on health and conservation.

Honestly, if someone had the time to look over my 2,347 posts (ugh, who'd want to do that?), they could find a much more unflattering quote. I kind of like the one you used.

My point is that QDM tends to be the Boogyman for a lot of people. Hunters seem to project their own fears onto the QDM movement and they attribute an agenda to it that does not really exist. I really think your comments (at least insofar as you have quoted me) are an example of this.

Just to ease the fears of everyone out there, I am no threat to anyone. I own a paltry 35 acres and I'm barely hanging on to that. I can't afford 3-strand barbed wire fences, let alone 12' cyclone fencing. My 1.5 acre food plot has gone back to nature because I couldn't keep up with the mowing. I do take does, no apology there. But I watch what I'm doing and I never fill all my tags. I pass on yearling bucks, much to the delight of my neighbors. I am not part of any organizations that advocate mandated QDM. All I ask of anyone is that they obey the game laws and stay on land they have permission to hunt. So if the bubble has burst, it didn't burst very violently in my case.  

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