What dont some people get about QDM

[Goose]

Good post JPH.
 
I often times wonder if people that are against QDM are on the other side of it and by that I mean have neighbors that do it and they suffer because of it. Its understandable and I have been there. As an example; we used to have pretty good hunting on our 50 acres when I first started sitting with my dad and brother. We were not out for big bucks but just meat. Across the road from us some people with money were buying land and alot of it! They started doing their version of QDM which was basically food plots and passing up bucks. We noticed a strong shift in deer behavior including seeing alot less deer. You could see heavy trails coming from our side and heading into their land and it got frustrating.
 
I have talked to several people with experiences similar to ours and they get a bitter feeling for QDM because it has effected them in a negative way.
 
Instead of getting bitter torwards it we have studied QDM and QDMA and have adopted it as part of our conservation plan. This includes everything from cover, logging, areas we leave alone, bird houses, duck houses, leaving half our field fallow, planting trees, and so on.
At the end of the day our goal is to try to give back more than we take and that means alot to us. So when someone comes on here and says we are doing the exact opposite of that it does offend me.
 
If you have a problem with glyphosate thats fine, write them a letter and sleep better at night.

[donutdavid]

No, I'm not losing momentum. I stand by each of my posts. Not backing off anything (JPH, you didn't happen to be a U.S. Congressman in a former life? You're putting more spin and more words in my mouth than I put into Aldo Leopold's......lol.)
 
And lets not drive a wedge between us where it doesn't exist. I agree eradicating deer from the cwd zone is a nearly impossible task and the hunters are not very happy about it. I don't blame them. If you're suggesting they should have thinned out deer a bit more before this happened, I agree. I've have been a population control person through and through. And concentrating the deer so closely together through baiting isn't a good idea either.
 
But you are right, the wind is out of my sails a bit. I just read Goose's post and I'm pretty near deflated. I can't possibly be the only one who sees this can I? By his own admission he used to have good hunting until his neighbors started practicing qdm. And the results? A strong shift in deer behavior.  I'm not making this up. It's right there in his post. QDM has effected people in a negative way - his words, not mine. A neighbor started practicing qdm and his good hunting disappeared. The deer behavior changed. And not for the good. Hmmmm.......
 
I bet this happened on all the neighboring properties too. I bet the deer concentrated on the qdm land (which could be the start of a great conversation on how qdm may have brought about the cwd crisis in the first place lol -yes, JPH, I'm kidding). So what did Goose do to "tweak" his plan? What did he decide to do to bring the deer back to his property like it was before the neighbor started controlling the deer movement? He decided to start practicing qdm.
 
Does no one see the viscious circle that can only lead to one possible conclusion?
 
Goose, I assume you're not using glysophate? We all know Round-up is an extraordinarily popular food-plot tool. If someone is using this and thinks they are giving back more than they're taking they have no idea of the meaning of the word "conservation."
 
Maybe I am losing momentum. It appears I'm definitely losing this argument, as I'm the only one making it.

[JPH]

donutdavid, no wedge. This is not personal, I just enjoy the debate. Anything to keep me off the streets until deer season.

So Goose's neighbors decided to make their property more inviting to wildlife by improving habitat and nutrition, and reducing human pressure. It worked. Now Goose and his family (and quite possibly others) have begun to join in. So you have a growing number of landowners educating themselves, working the land in order to make it a more inviting place for deer, harvesting more does, limiting their buck harvest and studying the results of their efforts. You say this is a BAD thing?

By this logic, the guy who moves into a run down neighborhood and fixes up a property is ruining it for everyone else in the slum. I mean why try to improve your own situation? It is only going to make other people want to do the same thing, right?

You've been good about telling us what we should not do, but how about some ideas? As small acreage landowners, what should Goose and I do? Till up the food plots and turn them back into fallow crop fields? Burn off our brush piles and stop encouraging forest regeneration? Mow down our escape/fawning cover? Start passing does and shooting yearling bucks? Letting every truckload of hunters tramp over it at will? If so, then it would take my place right back to where it was when we bought it. Is that your idea of progress and conservation?

[buckhunter21]

I'm sure I've said this and more in previous posts on this thread, but I'll say it again...Well, I'll just basically agree with JPH and Goose.  This is all about wildlife improvement.  I think JPH has made the perfect example when it comes to this.  We are always looking for improvements in every aspect of our lives, why not this?  Same concept.  Will it improve our hunting?  Probably.  Is this the only reason why we do it?  Absolutely not!  This has more to do with the deer and the health of the herd and caring for our wildlife than anything else. 

[msbadger]

May I ask a couple of ? dounutdave? ....just to reason this out in my mind...please

Do you own or rely on public hunting(nothing derogatory meant)

Is it just Roundup or the Montesono(sp) Corp. in general you worry about

Is it plots or any wild life improvements that bother you..ie....wood lot management ...ponds....plantings

[ranwin33]

Very enjoyable debate.  As someone who tries to practice varous aspects of QDM, I tend to agree it's a good thing for the deer herd and for the land in general.
 
But also, to me, it's just FUN.  I like working hard to create a food plot, then waiting to see what happens.  I like to go into the woods and make a clear cut, or thin some timber to release some oaks.  I like trying to change some things so maybe quail and pheasant will once again frequent our property.  I like planting trees, even though I know I may never see them at a stage where they are bearing fruit or nuts. 
 
I suppose I could leave our 100 acres alone, go hunt it during the season, and ignore it the rest of the year.  But why not enjoy it, and if what I do improves the habitat, so much the better.  If it doesn't, well I'll learn from that and try again.
 
So in the end, as selfish as it may sound, I'm really doing QDM for me.

[stumpsitter66]

In this battle of words, healthy by the way for debate, I would have to say it is Donut Dave in a knockout.

Jack


_____________________________

"We abuse deer because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see deer as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect." Donut Dave, 2009

[NEW61375]

While I am no QDMer I have been known to plant some food plots and fertilize some oak trees.  I also shoot lots of does, but in all honesty I have always done that.  Even before I ever heard of QDM, I just filled tags.  Do I think my food plots or increased mast crop help the herd?  Sure, in some ways, but I also am not under any illusions that my 100 acre farm is now a deer paradise with the healthiest deer in the county.  My main objective is to control deer movement, my land is too small for much else but if there is food and cover I will always have oppurtunities at whitetails, and yes they are usually fat healthy ones I draw out of the thick loggong cutovers bordering our landl, I like to think I may have aided in that part.

I guess what I am saying is I see what Donut is saying to a point because realistically QDMers are the minority by a long shot.   Yet whitetail populations remain strong, lots of monsters are being killed each season(all over the states), and overall even with traditional managemnet still outweighing QDM whitetail hunting is doing quite well.

A real QDM program is just not practical for most hunters.

I'll expound on that last part briefly.  Most hunters don't own large tracts of land, most hunters don't have "cooperative" neighboring landowners/ clubs, most hunters don't have the resources to fully participate in a real QDM program(time and money).  It takes all of those things to really practice QDM not to mention it could be 5-10 years before you see real results.  Many hunters can't even keep the same land anywhere near that amount of time due to urban sprawl, development, losing leases, etc.

So do I think my food plots, doe harvests, etc help?  Sure, is it a real QDM system?  Not hardly.  In all honesty the years I do nothing on the farm I don't notice much differnence at all. 

Since we were quoting the QDM site earlier I thought it was important to include these quotes from their site as well.

Is QDM for all Hunters?

Not necessarily. But a growing number of hunters have progressed to a stage in their hunting that reflects a change in values and a desire for a "different" hunting experience. Involvement in QDM is simply an alternative to traditional deer management. Originally, only large properties (1,000 acres or more) were involved in QDM, but smaller properties are now participating through the formation of QDM cooperatives comprised of several smaller properties with similar objectives.

The bolded part above is important because most of us hunt small tracts of land and the "coop" concept is very hard to accomplish as evidenced by this threads origin.  Another quote below.

Is QDM Right for You?

Quality deer management is not a panacea and many things should be considered before implementing QDM practices on your hunting land. If you answer yes to the following questions, QDM may be right for you. · Do you have enough acreage to manage your deer population without being severely affected by hunting pressure on adjacent properties? If not, will your neighbors join you and possibly others in forming a QDM cooperative? · Is the habitat on your hunting property adequate to produce and maintain a healthy deer herd? If not, do you and your hunting companions have the funds, equipment, and commitment to manage and improve the habitat? · Do the deer-hunting regulations in your state allow enough flexibility to manage your herd? Does your state wildlife agency encourage and assist landowners with management and allow adequate doe harvests? · Are you and your hunting companions prepared to commit to a long-term (often five or more years) management program? · Do you and your hunting companions understand the financial, time, and energy commitments and have realistic expectations regarding a QDM program?
When considering QDM, realistic expectations must be stressed. Management goals should be set with the potential of the local herd in mind. As a quality herd becomes established, it is important not to let expectations exceed the capabilities of the herd or habitat. Significant changes to deer herds and deer habitats do not happen overnight and often take several years to become obvious.
 
 
 
Most people can't answer yes to these questions so do what you can but be realistic in understanding you probably aint doing much.  Good luck to all whatever route you choose.[:D]


By the way JPH, I enjoyed the article this month(or was it last month),  either way some good stuff in there.

[JPH]

Thanks NEW61375, glad you enjoied the article. I was pretty happly with the way it came out. Sorry you did not agree with the basic theme, but I understand. Conservation is a broad topic and we all have our own unique take. That article was my best attempt to explain mine.
 
In your post you said a couple of things that jumped out at me:"A real QDM program is just not practical for most hunters." and "Most people can't answer yes to these questions so do what you can but be realistic in understanding you probably aint doing much."
 
The best response that can come up with is to quote Blessed Teresa of Calcutta. It is one of my favorites and I try to remember it in all aspects of my life. So far, conservation has been one of the few places that I have actually been able to pull it off. She said, "We can do no great things, only small things with great love."

[NEW61375]

JPH it's not that I disagree with the theme very much it's just that the practical application for some of us is hard, many times because of things we can not control,  I'd hate to plant 20 acres of food plants and start seeing some good young bucks that proceed to get mowed down as soon as gun season opens, to have that much invested(work, time, money) and not be able to fully develop it would be frustrating on many levels.  My farm has some good cover/thickets, a pond and creek, and some good mast and hay fields.   So I tweak what I can and hope for the best.  But I hunt in VA so I know the 3000 acres near mine that's leased by 2 hunt clubs will greatly impact deer movement and those young bucks reaching 3 & 4 years old.  It is what it is, I will never be able to control some very key elements so I can't justify dumping a lot of resources into it but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy hunting my farm.  Lots of great memories have been made there and good lord willing my friends/family and I will have many more seasons and memories ahead.
 
"We can do no great things, only small things with great love."
 
good quote