"Hunting is a privilege, not a right"

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JPH
 
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Re: "Hunting is a privilege, not a right"

Postby JPH » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:06 pm

Oh no. That is a very good idea and it most certainly in a right!

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shaman
 
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Re: "Hunting is a privilege, not a right"

Postby shaman » Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:17 pm

Okay. Maybe "being well suited to it" is not the best criterion for determining a natural right of man. However, I thought we'd already agreed hunting was a right, but that sport hunting (as practiced in the US) is a privilege. Don't tell me you're going to backtrack on that now.

My point in making the distinction is that the state has an obligation to keep hunting open and available for the greatest number of its citizens. Yes, you can treat it as a privilege, but behind it is a basic right.
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JPH
 
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Re: "Hunting is a privilege, not a right"

Postby JPH » Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:52 pm

Yeah, I know but I never really agreed to that. I just did not fight it.

I still cannot accept hunting as a right, only as a means to support a right.

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shaman
 
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Re: "Hunting is a privilege, not a right"

Postby shaman » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:38 am

Well, let's see if we can back you into this acceptance.

States allow sport hunting, right?
States promote hunting, right?
If a state abolished hunting within its boundaries, folks would be pretty mad. Right?
Folks would fight the ban. They would not accept the ban. They would not observe the ban, right?

Now you have to ask yourself: why would people do this if it was not really, really important to them.
Then you'd look back in history and see that even when kings made it a capitol offense to hunt, folks still hunted.
It seems that nothing, no one, no how can stop people from hunting.
Why is that?


Right.
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retch sweeny
 
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Re: "Hunting is a privilege, not a right"

Postby retch sweeny » Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:48 am

No. Its not a right. Not in any way shape or form. I've been away for a few days but nothing has changed. Hunting is still not a right. I know some want desperately to think it is but you are only trying to convince yourselves.

I still think there has been a real lack of critical thinking in this thread. “Hunting” is not a universal word as some want to apply it here. I can hunt with a camera. Hunting with a weapon is different. taking game with a weapon is not a right. It’s a privilege and approval to do so comes from the state you live in. You don’t need their approval or pay a dime to hunt 27/7/365 but hunting is not killing or taking game, it can be an end result if all the stars align but the two are not intertwined as some here want to make it. Taking game is a different thing than hunting yet some here have incorrectly assume they mean the same thing. So if you want to believe hunting is a right, go for it and hunt away, year round but you don’t have a right to kill an animal but you can hunt them till your blue in the face. Killing one of your states game animals is a privilege you have to get from the state. You have zero right to kill game. I know some want to disagree but again, you are only applying wishful thinking.

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Deebz
 
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Re: "Hunting is a privilege, not a right"

Postby Deebz » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:19 am

I disagree with that statement Retch... If you claim to be "hunting" animals with a camera, then you are not hunting animals. You are hunting an image captured via film or digital capture device.

Regardless of semantics, if you do not have any intention of actually killing a deer, you are not "hunting". You are just sitting in a tree or walking around trying to see deer, or trying to get close to deer.

From dictionary.com:


1.
to chase or search for (game or other wild animals) for the purpose of catching or killing.

2.
to pursue with force, hostility, etc., in order to capture (often followed by down ): They hunted him down and hanged him.

3.
to search for; seek; endeavor to obtain or find (often followed by up or out ): to hunt up the most promising candidates for the position.

4.
to search (a place) thoroughly.

5.
to scour (an area) in pursuit of game.


verb (used without object)
8.
to engage in the pursuit, capture, or killing of wild animals for food or in sport.

As we know, our language uses many words with many different meanings, but the first 2 listed are obviously describing what the vast majority people who identify themselves as hunters intend...
"When a hunter is in a tree stand with high moral values and with the proper hunting ethics and richer for the experience, that hunter is 20 feet closer to God." ~Fred Bear

retch sweeny
 
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Re: "Hunting is a privilege, not a right"

Postby retch sweeny » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:40 am

Deebz wrote:I disagree with that statement Retch... If you claim to be "hunting" animals with a camera, then you are not hunting animals. You are hunting an image captured via film or digital capture device.

Regardless of semantics, if you do not have any intention of actually killing a deer, you are not "hunting". You are just sitting in a tree or walking around trying to see deer, or trying to get close to deer.


My friend, the rule of law is based entirely on semantics. Words mean things. It’s the meaning of those words that make or destroy the case you are trying to make. Thank you for providing the words that make my arguments for me. You dictionary search says “hunting” means:

to chase or search, to pursue, to search for, seek, endeavor to find, to scour.

Hunting is that act of chasing, searching, pursuing, seeking and/or trying to find something. I saw nothing in there about killing ot taking. You have mistakenly assumed that hunting means killings game. It does not. There are many hunts I have been on where I did a great deal of hunting but no killing. Hunting is allowed to everybody. It’s essentially a benign activity in that you can do it without actually doing anything. I can spend my day hunting for berries or shrooms or even deer but the end result may just have been a walk in the woods. Its when the hunt ends and the killing begins that is the rub of this debate. You have no right (even though it not prohibited) to hunt for things. Likewise, you have no right to kill things once the hunt ends and the killing is to start. You can't automatically assume the two are the same .

I can kill game on my land where my house is. If a game animal walks by my patio door during an open season and I have purchased a privilege from the state to kill that species, I can slide open the patio door, stick a weapon out and kill that animal. You would agree that zero hunting took place in that scenario and that was simply a kill. I don’t have a legal, natural or constitutional right to kill that animal. I had to purchase the approval (privilege) to do so from the state (because its not a right I was given at birth) Hunting and taking game cannot be assumed to be one in the same for the sake of this discussion. To do so means you are not grasping the importance of words and semantics and are being intellectually lazy by hoping to lump them together as if they are the same.
Last edited by retch sweeny on Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

retch sweeny
 
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Re: "Hunting is a privilege, not a right"

Postby retch sweeny » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:50 am

You want to link walking through the woods with a loaded weapon as you hunt for game as a right. It is not. If it were an inalienable right, there would be no seasons and you would be allowed by right to roam the woods with a loaded weapon under the guise of taking your loaded weapon for a walk. While you are allowed to walk the woods of WI with a loaded side arm under the right to bear arms and for protection and you can even be hunting for berries or even deer sign or places to ambush deer in the future but you don’t have any kind of right to discharge that weapon 24/7/365 to kill game as some supposed right that you were granted simply by virtue of being born. Its just not realistic to think that you do. The killing of game and the public trust doctrine and rights can just be lumped together as some here are attempting to do. They are trying to sting a series of events together as a way of making a case for their side of the debate but they are failing miserably under even the most modest application of critical thinking.

retch sweeny
 
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Re: "Hunting is a privilege, not a right"

Postby retch sweeny » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:28 am

While I think the originator of this thread thought (At least in his head) that he was asking if “hunting” is or is not a right or should or should not be a right but what he really mean to ask was if killing game is a right because “hunting” for something and “killing” something are not the same thing. I’ll again use WI as an example. If I kill a deer with my truck, I don’t have a “right” to that animal. I can obtain permission to keep the carcass or at the very least, have the right of first refusal to the carcass and if I don’t want it, another person can ask for permission to keep the meat but none of us have a constitutional right to that carcass even if I kill it. Likewise, if I am prohibited from hunting or even gun ownership by virtue of being a criminal, I can simply go out and kill deer with my truck to get the meat as a way around the fact that I cant legally hunt. Again, words mean things. Semantics are the gas that the engine of law runs on. Hunting nor killing game is a right. Nor should it be or you introduce chaos, that you don’t want introduced.

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Big Horse
 
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Re: "Hunting is a privilege, not a right"

Postby Big Horse » Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:12 am

He did not.

Removing government from the picture for a moment… I, you, anyone can go upon their own property, property of which they have permission, or the property of We the People, and chase, search, pursue, seek, endeavor to find, berries, shrooms, deer, or a myriad of things, and we are capable of doing so, simply because our Creator has given us the intellect, the desire, the abilities, the faculties, to do so. And exercising these faculties conveys absolutely no requirements or imposition upon another. The killing, picking or harvest of your quarry included.

It’s a right which cannot be taken from you, but can only be infringed upon. This is where government comes into the picture. Government cannot take your rights, but they, thru the acceptance of regulation by elected leadership, do impose limits and restrictions on rights all the time. Because they have infringed upon a right and we as a society have accepted these limitations does not make the right any less of a right.

The government cannot stop you from exercising a right. There is absolutely nothing they can do to you, short of taking your life, that removes your ability to chase, search, pursue, seek, endeavor to find… whatever. They can only impose consequences for the exercise of the right outside of the parameters they have set.

The government can limit your freedom of speech and say you can’t yell “Fire!” in a theater. But you still have the ability to yell “Fire!” in a theater. And if you do there may be consequences. Your right of free speech has not been eliminated, it’s been restricted. Likewise, the government can say you can’t hunt deer but within certain time frames, during certain hours, with certain weapons, with certain bag limits, and charge you a tax in order to exercise this natural faculty… but that doesn’t mean that this natural right, is not there. It simply means it’s been limited. Exercising that right outside the accepted societal boundaries may have consequences. The right still exists. It’s free exercise has been alienated.
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