Hunting with Dogs

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cbhunter
 
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RE: Hunting with Dogs

Postby cbhunter » Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:38 pm

When someone states "Doesn't sound much different than groups driving deer." and they can't tell the difference between humans driving deer and dogs trailing and running deer based on a scent trail, then I feel compelled to state the obvious...they are uneducated

 
 
   Ok so I am uneducated about hunting with dogs. I've never seen or done it, the only thing I know is what I've read. Maybe there is a big difference, but they have same idea pushing deer to people that are "posted" around a area.
   I've seen and taken part in alot of "deer drives" some have covered many miles and lasted for the better part of a day. In most of these cases the deer was killed by a hunter mostly because he(always a buck) could't run anymore. I suppose the few that did get away could have died of exhaustion.
   I don't hunt this way anymore, not because I think its wrong, but mostly cause I'm not very good at hitting running deer with a slug. I'm not going to judge anyone for the way hunt as long as they follow the laws of their state. That doesn't mean I agree with them either.

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EatDeer
 
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RE: Hunting with Dogs

Postby EatDeer » Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:24 am

ORIGINAL: deerhunter713

Oh yeah and one more thing what gives you the right to call someone uneducated.


When someone states "Doesn't sound much different than groups driving deer." and they can't tell the difference between humans driving deer and dogs trailing and running deer based on a scent trail, then I feel compelled to state the obvious...they are uneducated.  My right to state my opinion is guaranteed by the First Amendment of the Constitution.

Dogs will run deer until the deer is dead, that is a fact...not an opinion.  This is why dogs that are running deer are shot up in this part of the country...why don't you bring your deer running dogs up here and let them run a deer across my hunting property?  We'll see how well they track with a slug through the boiler room.

In your original post, you expected to "catch some slack for this".  Now be a man and take it.  You posed a question about unethical hunting practices on a forum that is generally made up of ethical hunters who respect the animal which they are pursuing.  I feel passionate about my view on this form of herding and killing; it is not hunting.  To call it hunting or call yourself a hunter is a disgrace to the sport of hunting and to hunters in general.
I agree with most of your post, but it's not the dogs fault, and you shouldn't be shooting them. The dog doesn't know any better. [;)]  I'd like to add to the disscussion that I've seen a few deer being ran by coyote dogs, and this is the only times I ever saw a doe with it's tounge hanging out, and about ready to collapse, with a dog hot on the trail.  Also, when someone hunts rabbits or quail, the game either flys away, or ducks down a hole, I'd like to see a deer do that trick. I used to be into the deer drives years ago when I didnt have my own land. I'd think that a human can push deer just as easily as a dog, so why would someone even really need a dog in the first place? I'd like you to tell me what happens when the dogs actually do catch the deer, if you think it's so ethical?[8|]  
"Let a young buck go, so he can grow."

FergVA
 
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RE: Hunting with Dogs

Postby FergVA » Thu Sep 11, 2008 3:59 am

I have to add my comments to this topic as it is big in VA right now.  
 
Most of the proponents of this method seem to make the argument that most dog hunters follow the rules and just a few make a bad reputation.  However, this is not the case in southern Va.   We have many people who have moved in and purchased small farms (I have 220 acres).  These peolpe, myself included, do not allow hunting on our property.  The dog hunters want to hold the argument of tradition.  Cannibalism is a tradition is some parts of the world so this alone is not a good argument.  In light of tradition,  these guys still hunt everybody's property because they always have.   Va. law allows them to trespass on private property in the name of retrieving their dogs as long as they walk in and do not carry a firearm.  The typcial hounder drives on the property and carries his hunting firearm.  They also regularly pull their truck up to your posted sign and release the dogs on your property.  They also run their dogs year round, whether fawning or rutting.  This is not legal in VA but fox hunting is so the game department has given up enforcement as the fox hunting claim is always used.   During the regular firearms season here one typcially sees trucks and orange hats all along the side of the highway and in the thoroughfare itself.   I could actualy go on but I think you get my point.   If there are hounders that represent the hunting community well,  they are not anywhere near where I try to hunt.

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passin through
 
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RE: Hunting with Dogs

Postby passin through » Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:24 am

ORIGINAL: EatDeer

ORIGINAL: deerhunter713

Oh yeah and one more thing what gives you the right to call someone uneducated.


When someone states "Doesn't sound much different than groups driving deer." and they can't tell the difference between humans driving deer and dogs trailing and running deer based on a scent trail, then I feel compelled to state the obvious...they are uneducated.  My right to state my opinion is guaranteed by the First Amendment of the Constitution.

Dogs will run deer until the deer is dead, that is a fact...not an opinion.  This is why dogs that are running deer are shot up in this part of the country...why don't you bring your deer running dogs up here and let them run a deer across my hunting property?  We'll see how well they track with a slug through the boiler room.

In your original post, you expected to "catch some slack for this".  Now be a man and take it.  You posed a question about unethical hunting practices on a forum that is generally made up of ethical hunters who respect the animal which they are pursuing.  I feel passionate about my view on this form of herding and killing; it is not hunting.  To call it hunting or call yourself a hunter is a disgrace to the sport of hunting and to hunters in general.
I agree with most of your post, but it's not the dogs fault, and you shouldn't be shooting them. The dog doesn't know any better. [;)]  I'd like to add to the disscussion that I've seen a few deer being ran by coyote dogs, and this is the only times I ever saw a doe with it's tounge hanging out, and about ready to collapse, with a dog hot on the trail.  Also, when someone hunts rabbits or quail, the game either flys away, or ducks down a hole, I'd like to see a deer do that trick. I used to be into the deer drives years ago when I didnt have my own land. I'd think that a human can push deer just as easily as a dog, so why would someone even really need a dog in the first place? I'd like you to tell me what happens when the dogs actually do catch the deer, if you think it's so ethical?[8|]  



Not picking your post apart in a bad way but just wanted to throw in 2 cents for some of your points.  I know ya'll don't use hounds and are not in country where it is prevalent or practical, much less legal.  I just wanted to add in some insight from long time experience on the other side of the table.  There is a whole lot of misconceptions out there and outright mis information based on dog hunting.  I'm not trying to change anybodys mind just throw out the otherside of a story.
First of all: Thank You! for the first sentence....it is not the dogs fault and people who shoot dogs arbitrarily really upset me. I understand their point of view but I was raised in the middle of my lease and all the people around me have dogs or did.  Usually the ones talking that "kill the dog" or "lift collars" line are folks who come up here from town to hunt and are not local nor landowners and they got squat for knowledge/investment in or about the area and think they just arrived on the frontier when they left the city limits.  I will add this about the dogs running the deer down to death from exhaustion...it may happen....I may can see it in open country but just based on my experience (I've been raising and hunting dogs for 28 years) here in the southland its pretty much thickets and briars and I have never seen a healthy deer run down by any breed of dogs.  I know people see it or think they see it but the fox or coyote hound breeds are the fastest ones used to run deer to my knowledge and I've never seen a pack catch a deer in the woods.  Other breeds just ain't got it period...the image of a Beagle or Black and Tan pack putting a deer down is just funny.  As far as dodging pursuit ,deer have thier own tricks.  They will circle contiuously and then break high or low and just out distance the dogs.  They will go to water and swim it or wade it.  They can double back on a pack and litterally go right through the middle of them and that will cause a "lose" believe it or not.  As tbone said they can cross in close proximity to a house and lose thier scent in with the scents there.  I have seen first hand a buck being chased go right through the middle of a group of does.... the pack split off onto a doe apiece and the buck kept going up the hill and squatted as we say.... having lost the pursuit.  There are lots of things a deer can and does do to elude pursuit.  The effectiveness of your pack is based on age, experience, numbers, and how they hunt  (if they are following scent trail or scent funnel)  (beagles and other slower types of a colder nosed variety use the scent trail which is slower and more methodicalbut stands a good chance of losing the deer just because he can leave them behind so easily)  (Walkers and Triggs and July's will generally run scent funnel which is faster but easier to lose)    The only benefit between hounds and a human drive to me is a hound can go places here where a human usually would not and you can use less people and cover a larger area.
I'm just throwing this out there as from my side of the equation as a dog hunter.  Based on my circumstances and experiences I believe it to be an ethical form of hunting if done properly (as with any other form of hunting.)  To me when you are successful as a dog hunter you have outsmarted the biggest survival expert on the continent.  This is how I think of it....That deer is not going any where to eat or breed, it is not going to water it is not going or coming to a bedding area.  When you shoot a deer actually being pursued by a hound...he knows he is being hunted...he is in full survival mode all synapses firing.  You have to be one better to get your shot off.  Sure there are ways to cheat but theres ways to cheat at everything it all depends on you and what you will do.  Again I'm not really trying to change anybodys mind but the popular mythos is that dogs are magic and no deer ever gets away or whatever and its just not so.  I have used hounds in the pursuit of everything that walks in the state of Louisiana up to and including men and if a 85 year old Alzhiemers patient can walk my search and rescue hounds plus the parish's blood hounds down in the course of a 15 mile cross country zig zag jaunt back to his old family farm then a healthy whitetail can for dang sure stay ahead of some mutts for as long as it wants to.

hunter480
 
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RE: Hunting with Dogs

Postby hunter480 » Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:03 pm

ORIGINAL: passin through

ORIGINAL: EatDeer

ORIGINAL: deerhunter713

[quote]Oh yeah and one more thing what gives you the right to call someone uneducated.


When someone states "Doesn't sound much different than groups driving deer." and they can't tell the difference between humans driving deer and dogs trailing and running deer based on a scent trail, then I feel compelled to state the obvious...they are uneducated.  My right to state my opinion is guaranteed by the First Amendment of the Constitution.

Dogs will run deer until the deer is dead, that is a fact...not an opinion.  This is why dogs that are running deer are shot up in this part of the country...why don't you bring your deer running dogs up here and let them run a deer across my hunting property?  We'll see how well they track with a slug through the boiler room.

In your original post, you expected to "catch some slack for this".  Now be a man and take it.  You posed a question about unethical hunting practices on a forum that is generally made up of ethical hunters who respect the animal which they are pursuing.  I feel passionate about my view on this form of herding and killing; it is not hunting.  To call it hunting or call yourself a hunter is a disgrace to the sport of hunting and to hunters in general.
I agree with most of your post, but it's not the dogs fault, and you shouldn't be shooting them. The dog doesn't know any better. [;)]  I'd like to add to the disscussion that I've seen a few deer being ran by coyote dogs, and this is the only times I ever saw a doe with it's tounge hanging out, and about ready to collapse, with a dog hot on the trail.  Also, when someone hunts rabbits or quail, the game either flys away, or ducks down a hole, I'd like to see a deer do that trick. I used to be into the deer drives years ago when I didnt have my own land. I'd think that a human can push deer just as easily as a dog, so why would someone even really need a dog in the first place? I'd like you to tell me what happens when the dogs actually do catch the deer, if you think it's so ethical?[8|]  



Not picking your post apart in a bad way but just wanted to throw in 2 cents for some of your points.  I know ya'll don't use hounds and are not in country where it is prevalent or practical, much less legal.  I just wanted to add in some insight from long time experience on the other side of the table.  There is a whole lot of misconceptions out there and outright mis information based on dog hunting.  I'm not trying to change anybodys mind just throw out the otherside of a story.
First of all: Thank You! for the first sentence....it is not the dogs fault and people who shoot dogs arbitrarily really upset me. I understand their point of view but I was raised in the middle of my lease and all the people around me have dogs or did.  Usually the ones talking that "kill the dog" or "lift collars" line are folks who come up here from town to hunt and are not local nor landowners and they got squat for knowledge/investment in or about the area and think they just arrived on the frontier when they left the city limits.  I will add this about the dogs running the deer down to death from exhaustion...it may happen....I may can see it in open country but just based on my experience (I've been raising and hunting dogs for 28 years) here in the southland its pretty much thickets and briars and I have never seen a healthy deer run down by any breed of dogs.  I know people see it or think they see it but the fox or coyote hound breeds are the fastest ones used to run deer to my knowledge and I've never seen a pack catch a deer in the woods.  Other breeds just ain't got it period...the image of a Beagle or Black and Tan pack putting a deer down is just funny.  As far as dodging pursuit ,deer have thier own tricks.  They will circle contiuously and then break high or low and just out distance the dogs.  They will go to water and swim it or wade it.  They can double back on a pack and litterally go right through the middle of them and that will cause a "lose" believe it or not.  As tbone said they can cross in close proximity to a house and lose thier scent in with the scents there.  I have seen first hand a buck being chased go right through the middle of a group of does.... the pack split off onto a doe apiece and the buck kept going up the hill and squatted as we say.... having lost the pursuit.  There are lots of things a deer can and does do to elude pursuit.  The effectiveness of your pack is based on age, experience, numbers, and how they hunt  (if they are following scent trail or scent funnel)  (beagles and other slower types of a colder nosed variety use the scent trail which is slower and more methodicalbut stands a good chance of losing the deer just because he can leave them behind so easily)  (Walkers and Triggs and July's will generally run scent funnel which is faster but easier to lose)    The only benefit between hounds and a human drive to me is a hound can go places here where a human usually would not and you can use less people and cover a larger area.
I'm just throwing this out there as from my side of the equation as a dog hunter.  Based on my circumstances and experiences I believe it to be an ethical form of hunting if done properly (as with any other form of hunting.)  To me when you are successful as a dog hunter you have outsmarted the biggest survival expert on the continent.  This is how I think of it....That deer is not going any where to eat or breed, it is not going to water it is not going or coming to a bedding area.  When you shoot a deer actually being pursued by a hound...he knows he is being hunted...he is in full survival mode all synapses firing.  You have to be one better to get your shot off.  Sure there are ways to cheat but theres ways to cheat at everything it all depends on you and what you will do.  Again I'm not really trying to change anybodys mind but the popular mythos is that dogs are magic and no deer ever gets away or whatever and its just not so.  I have used hounds in the pursuit of everything that walks in the state of Louisiana up to and including men and if a 85 year old Alzhiemers patient can walk my search and rescue hounds plus the parish's blood hounds down in the course of a 15 mile cross country zig zag jaunt back to his old family farm then a healthy whitetail can for dang sure stay ahead of some mutts for as long as it wants to.
[/quote]

Your statement is completely wrong that deer can stay ahead of a dog as long as it wants........that`s not the case at all.

And, as dog running is not legal in Indiana, I DO shoot dogs I see running deer runs when I`m in my stand. Not the dogs fault to be sure, but the same damage done to the deer and the area nonetheless. If the owners cared about the dogs, they wouldn`t be running loose. It`s not a task I enjoy, but it`s as necessary as a root canal.

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passin through
 
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RE: Hunting with Dogs

Postby passin through » Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:39 pm

480 --- gonna have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.  A lifetimes experience says most of the time the deer will get away unless he makes a mistake.  As for shooting dogs....well heck I shoot ones that don't hunt[:D]  But if somebody else shot mine and I could prove it?  For just doing what a dog does?  I've spent the better part of my adult life finding and keeping records of court cases where dog killers lost and I would see them prosecuted.  Now if I just suspected it but could not prove it?  Really would depend on the moment.......

hunter480
 
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RE: Hunting with Dogs

Postby hunter480 » Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:03 pm

ORIGINAL: passin through

480 --- gonna have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.  A lifetimes experience says most of the time the deer will get away unless he makes a mistake.  As for shooting dogs....well heck I shoot ones that don't hunt[:D]  But if somebody else shot mine and I could prove it?  For just doing what a dog does?  I've spent the better part of my adult life finding and keeping records of court cases where dog killers lost and I would see them prosecuted.  Now if I just suspected it but could not prove it?  Really would depend on the moment.......


Again, dog owners who Care about their dogs, don`t let them run loose and TRESSPASS.

And AGAIN, I don`t enjoy at all putting dogs down, but, you`re as mistaken about how badly a dog running deer can hurt them, as you are misguided with your barely veiled threat. Dogs will cause deer to be hurt badly from the chase.

As for the rest of your post... way too bad we hunt so far apart.

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passin through
 
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RE: Hunting with Dogs

Postby passin through » Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:07 pm

Apologies for any implied threat.  I worked very hard not to sound threatening in anyway...I thought.  As to the rest of your post ..... I'm not trying to change your mind as I stated in my original post, just share some of my own experience which is not insubstantial on the subject.

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tbone3
 
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RE: Hunting with Dogs

Postby tbone3 » Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:08 pm

Ok hunter480, your opinion is just that an opinion, NOT FACT.  And yes you are entitled to your opinion, even though I strongly disagree with it.  Let me ask you this, have you ever had alot of experience with hunting with dogs, my guess would be no.  So if you have never had experience with it how can you be so sure that you are as much of an expert at it that you think you are.  I agree with what Passin Through posted, and between the two of us we have 42 years experience doing this, and how much do you have, oh yeah that's right NONE! So how can you think that you know all that there is to know about it when you really don't know squat.  All I am saying is if you are going to post such a strong opinion please know what you are talking about first.  And the fact that you keep making threats to kill someones dogs is very well I am not going to say exactly what I think about that.  And for that matter noone has made threats to shoot your dog or cat, because believe it or not we do care about our hunting dogs.  To us these dogs are like your house dog is to you.  Before you say that phrase you used again ("the hunters don't care about their dogs if they let them run loose") please stop and don't automatically assume you know what we feel or think.  I know it is a lost cause to try and change your mind about this whole thing, and I was not trying to when I posted this, all I was really trying to do was have a civil discussion or debate about a subject.  That obviously cannot be done with you though.  I mean come on man making threats, I got past that in middle school.

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burnnurse1
 
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RE: Hunting with Dogs

Postby burnnurse1 » Thu Sep 11, 2008 2:49 pm

PT... I'm sorry but I was just sitting here reading through all of this and I had to just laugh out loud...... The Picture you have on your threads with the beautiful hound (Blue tick?) with I guess is his mouth around the deer, in the back of your truck, is just hilarious considering the content of this thread. Did that deer come from a dog run? If so that would make this thread an instant classic!!!!!

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