ORIGINAL: passin through
[quote]Oh yeah and one more thing what gives you the right to call someone uneducated.
When someone states "Doesn't sound much different than groups driving deer." and they can't tell the difference between humans driving deer and dogs trailing and running deer based on a scent trail, then I feel compelled to state the obvious...they are uneducated. My right to state my opinion is guaranteed by the First Amendment of the Constitution.
Dogs will run deer until the deer is dead, that is a fact...not an opinion. This is why dogs that are running deer are shot up in this part of the country...why don't you bring your deer running dogs up here and let them run a deer across my hunting property? We'll see how well they track with a slug through the boiler room.
In your original post, you expected to "catch some slack for this". Now be a man and take it. You posed a question about unethical hunting practices on a forum that is generally made up of ethical hunters who respect the animal which they are pursuing. I feel passionate about my view on this form of herding and killing; it is not hunting. To call it hunting or call yourself a hunter is a disgrace to the sport of hunting and to hunters in general.
I agree with most of your post, but it's not the dogs fault, and you shouldn't be shooting them. The dog doesn't know any better. [;)] I'd like to add to the disscussion that I've seen a few deer being ran by coyote dogs, and this is the only times I ever saw a doe with it's tounge hanging out, and about ready to collapse, with a dog hot on the trail. Also, when someone hunts rabbits or quail, the game either flys away, or ducks down a hole, I'd like to see a deer do that trick. I used to be into the deer drives years ago when I didnt have my own land. I'd think that a human can push deer just as easily as a dog, so why would someone even really need a dog in the first place? I'd like you to tell me what happens when the dogs actually do catch the deer, if you think it's so ethical?[8|]
Not picking your post apart in a bad way but just wanted to throw in 2 cents for some of your points. I know ya'll don't use hounds and are not in country where it is prevalent or practical, much less legal. I just wanted to add in some insight from long time experience on the other side of the table. There is a whole lot of misconceptions out there and outright mis information based on dog hunting. I'm not trying to change anybodys mind just throw out the otherside of a story.
First of all: Thank You! for the first sentence....it is not the dogs fault and people who shoot dogs arbitrarily really upset me. I understand their point of view but I was raised in the middle of my lease and all the people around me have dogs or did. Usually the ones talking that "kill the dog" or "lift collars" line are folks who come up here from town to hunt and are not local nor landowners and they got squat for knowledge/investment in or about the area and think they just arrived on the frontier when they left the city limits. I will add this about the dogs running the deer down to death from exhaustion...it may happen....I may can see it in open country but just based on my experience (I've been raising and hunting dogs for 28 years) here in the southland its pretty much thickets and briars and I have never seen a healthy deer run down by any breed of dogs. I know people see it or think they see it but the fox or coyote hound breeds are the fastest ones used to run deer to my knowledge and I've never seen a pack catch a deer in the woods. Other breeds just ain't got it period...the image of a Beagle or Black and Tan pack putting a deer down is just funny. As far as dodging pursuit ,deer have thier own tricks. They will circle contiuously and then break high or low and just out distance the dogs. They will go to water and swim it or wade it. They can double back on a pack and litterally go right through the middle of them and that will cause a "lose" believe it or not. As tbone said they can cross in close proximity to a house and lose thier scent in with the scents there. I have seen first hand a buck being chased go right through the middle of a group of does.... the pack split off onto a doe apiece and the buck kept going up the hill and squatted as we say.... having lost the pursuit. There are lots of things a deer can and does do to elude pursuit. The effectiveness of your pack is based on age, experience, numbers, and how they hunt (if they are following scent trail or scent funnel) (beagles and other slower types of a colder nosed variety use the scent trail which is slower and more methodicalbut stands a good chance of losing the deer just because he can leave them behind so easily) (Walkers and Triggs and July's will generally run scent funnel which is faster but easier to lose) The only benefit between hounds and a human drive to me is a hound can go places here where a human usually would not and you can use less people and cover a larger area.
I'm just throwing this out there as from my side of the equation as a dog hunter. Based on my circumstances and experiences I believe it to be an ethical form of hunting if done properly (as with any other form of hunting.) To me when you are successful as a dog hunter you have outsmarted the biggest survival expert on the continent. This is how I think of it....That deer is not going any where to eat or breed, it is not going to water it is not going or coming to a bedding area. When you shoot a deer actually being pursued by a hound...he knows he is being hunted...he is in full survival mode all synapses firing. You have to be one better to get your shot off. Sure there are ways to cheat but theres ways to cheat at everything it all depends on you and what you will do. Again I'm not really trying to change anybodys mind but the popular mythos is that dogs are magic and no deer ever gets away or whatever and its just not so. I have used hounds in the pursuit of everything that walks in the state of Louisiana up to and including men and if a 85 year old Alzhiemers patient can walk my search and rescue hounds plus the parish's blood hounds down in the course of a 15 mile cross country zig zag jaunt back to his old family farm then a healthy whitetail can for dang sure stay ahead of some mutts for as long as it wants to.
Your statement is completely wrong that deer can stay ahead of a dog as long as it wants........that`s not the case at all.
And, as dog running is not legal in Indiana, I DO shoot dogs I see running deer runs when I`m in my stand. Not the dogs fault to be sure, but the same damage done to the deer and the area nonetheless. If the owners cared about the dogs, they wouldn`t be running loose. It`s not a task I enjoy, but it`s as necessary as a root canal.