Hunting with Dogs

[mag30079]

As Shaman said earlier it not the dogs fault. The dog is just following orders. I'm not in favor of this practice either, because its noisy but I wouldn't shoot the dogs. If its legal in your state more power to you. Also if this is the way you feed your family more power to you. Hopefully this practice is on private land. It's a touchy subject, I don't see us all agreeing on.

[EatDeer]

ORIGINAL: JPH

ORIGINAL: EatDeer

I don't care how someone sugar coats dogging deer, I won't agree. I've seen what the same dogs can do to ferrel pigs when they catch them. I also know the dogs switch the lead chase to conserve energy when chasing. In IL, its unlawful to allow dogs to chase, harass, or kill deer. We may not dog deer in IL, but coyotes are legal to dog around here. When the dogs catch them they shredd the coyote to pieces.  Now avoid my question of "What happens to the deer when the dogs catch it?" Typical of a dogger, because doggers will say anything to keep dogging deer legal and sounding ethical. The truth of the matter is dogs are hunting the deer...not you.  Save the dogging for pigs, or big cats for all I care, just leave the deer for men to hunt. Makes me glad I live in IL, I can do without the dogging.   

Wait a minute EatDeer. You just told us in your opener that "coyotes are legal to dog hunt" in IL. You also say that you consider it to be okay for pigs and cats. But you are gald that you live in IL, where there is no dogging??

So it is fine for dogs to tear apart a coyote, pig or cat...but the remote chance that they may get to a deer before a hunter does makes it wrong for deer hunting? Why is it fine for one game animal to die that way and not another?

Look, I'm not big on the idea of dog hunting because of concerns for how it may affect property owners and other hunters. But I don't like to see anyone post things like "I dont care how someone sugar coats (whatever), I won't agree." It implies that you are not open to learning.

Deer are not ferral, or predatory, like it or not it's my opinion. What is to learn? Someone is ethier pro-dogging deer or they are not, comparing how other animals are treated is irrelevent as to how deer are treated or hunted as pertains to my statements. Although, I could relate that to how the well-being of a dog is of consern when dogging big game, but that is a totally another issue. I'm glad I live in IL., where dogging deer is unlawful, and yes I don't mind hunters dogging coyotes, or hogs, or big cats,the last of which my opinion is boarderline against.  Simple statement to understand isnt it? Unless you want to twist it out of context of course. [8|]

[EatDeer]

 deleted

[JPH]

ORIGINAL: EatDeer
 Deer are not ferral, or predatory, like it or not it's my opinion. What is to learn? Someone is ethier pro-dogging deer or they are not, comparing how other animals are treated is irrelevent as to how deer are treated or hunted as pertains to my statements. I'm glad I live in IL., where dogging deer is unlawful, and yes I don't mind hunters dogging coyotes, or hogs, or big cats,the last of which my opinion is boarderline against.  Simple statement to understand isnt it? Unless you want to twist it out of context of course. [8|]

 
I'm a pretty bright guy (although I can't spell) and I understand context fully. You are saying that it is okay for a coyote to be torn apart by dogs but it is unethical to even present a scenaro where that might happen to a deer. I'm not exactly certain how Illinois law keeps dogs who are turned loose on coyotes from harming deer, but I understand your position. It is inconsistant at best, and hypocritical at worst.
 
Once again, I am uncomfortable with dogging deer myself. But I am more concerned with those who enter a discussion refusing to learn from it. If you do not wish to expand your understanding of deer and deer hunting, than why are you here?
 
I'll come right out and say it. If they were to consider dog hunting in Iowa, I would fight it. But, if I were invited to a legal dog hunt in a southern state, where I knew the dogs would remain on the right peroperty and the hunters were safe and responsable, I'd go for it. Who knows, I might make a new friend or learn something.
 

[tbone3]

You are right hunter480 this has been one very emotional debate.  And yes i agree with the fact that we are all never going to agree on the subject.  All that I stated has been from personal experience on the topic.  Although I strongly disagree on what some have stated,  I can see all of yall's points as well.  If I had never been around dog hunting for deer then I might not like it either.  But the fact is that I love to do this, to me there is nothing like the sound of a pack of dogs in hot pursuit of a deer.  I still no matter what will stick to this, in all the years that I have been doing this I have never seen a deer get shreaded by a pack of dogs.  But I want you to ask yourself one question.  If a pack of dogs came through your hunting area running a beautiful 10 pointer with a 25  inch inside spread right by your treestand, and the deer stopped and gave you a perfect broadside shot at 50 yards, would you take it or would you pass it up?  I mean since you are so against it and all what would you do?  I think we all know the real answer no matter what anyone says.  You see I have known people to be so against dog hunting for deer, but in the same respect when givin the oppurtunity to shoot a big or even a medium sized buck or doe for that matter in front of the dogs, they did not think twice.  So ask yourself that question and answer it truthfully.  This question is posed to all of you who have commented on this thread, and for those of you who have just read this and are against hunting with dogs for deer and think it is soooo unethical. 

[EatDeer]

ORIGINAL: JPH

ORIGINAL: EatDeer
Deer are not ferral, or predatory, like it or not it's my opinion. What is to learn? Someone is ethier pro-dogging deer or they are not, comparing how other animals are treated is irrelevent as to how deer are treated or hunted as pertains to my statements. I'm glad I live in IL., where dogging deer is unlawful, and yes I don't mind hunters dogging coyotes, or hogs, or big cats,the last of which my opinion is boarderline against.  Simple statement to understand isnt it? Unless you want to twist it out of context of course. [8|]

I'm a pretty bright guy (although I can't spell) and I understand context fully. You are saying that it is okay for a coyote to be torn apart by dogs but it is unethical to even present a scenaro where that might happen to a deer. I'm not exactly certain how Illinois law keeps dogs who are turned loose on coyotes from harming deer, but I understand your position. It is inconsistant at best, and hypocritical at worst.

Once again, I am uncomfortable with dogging deer myself. But I am more concerned with those who enter a discussion refusing to learn from it. If you do not wish to expand your understanding of deer and deer hunting, than why are you here?

I'll come right out and say it. If they were to consider dog hunting in Iowa, I would fight it. But, if I were invited to a legal dog hunt in a southern state, where I knew the dogs would remain on the right peroperty and the hunters were safe and responsable, I'd go for it. Who knows, I might make a new friend or learn something.

Like I stated, deer are not  predators or ferral, and that is the difference. As for how IL. laws are keeping dogs from being turned lose on deer, they attain that goal by imposing fines or jail time for the owners of such dogs. Why I am here? Well it is a disscussion forum, whether someone likes mine or anyone elses opinions or not, doesn't matter. Instead of making personal attacks questioning someone's reasons to be involved in a public forum, maybe you should just use the ignore feature. I think it's pretty clear why most of us are here debating the issues. You would fight dogging deer in IA, but would dog deer in the south, that is the very essence of hypocritical. My belief ,and others is that dogging deer is unethical, and demeaning to the sport of hunting. It is a opinion, nothing more.

[EatDeer]

ORIGINAL: tbone3

You are right hunter480 this has been one very emotional debate.  And yes i agree with the fact that we are all never going to agree on the subject.  All that I stated has been from personal experience on the topic.  Although I strongly disagree on what some have stated,  I can see all of yall's points as well.  If I had never been around dog hunting for deer then I might not like it either.  But the fact is that I love to do this, to me there is nothing like the sound of a pack of dogs in hot pursuit of a deer.  I still no matter what will stick to this, in all the years that I have been doing this I have never seen a deer get shreaded by a pack of dogs.  But I want you to ask yourself one question.  If a pack of dogs came through your hunting area running a beautiful 10 pointer with a 25  inch inside spread right by your treestand, and the deer stopped and gave you a perfect broadside shot at 50 yards, would you take it or would you pass it up?  I mean since you are so against it and all what would you do?  I think we all know the real answer no matter what anyone says.  You see I have known people to be so against dog hunting for deer, but in the same respect when givin the oppurtunity to shoot a big or even a medium sized buck or doe for that matter in front of the dogs, they did not think twice.  So ask yourself that question and answer it truthfully.  This question is posed to all of you who have commented on this thread, and for those of you who have just read this and are against hunting with dogs for deer and think it is soooo unethical. 

If the deer stopped for a perfect shot, I doubt the dogs would be close behind. Even If someone did take the shot, in my opinion, that doesnt make them a deer dogger, because they were not personaly involved with the dogging group. I have seen domestic dogs take down and kill mature deer, then pack them home in peices. Not a pack mind you, but a couple average sized dogs. I have seen larger dogs kill mature deer by themseves. It does happen, and to assume a deer running pack couldn't do that doesn't make sense to me. Coyote packs can even kill deer. No, believe it or not, I wouldn't be involved with intentional deer dogging, but I would however call the CPO's to let them know dogs were chasing deer.

[tbone3]

Ok first you dodged the question, simply answer would you take the shot.  And as a matter of fact the deer do get a long ways ahead of the dogs, I have seen it many of times the deer run a ways and then stop.  Even in front of a fast pack of walkers.  And if the person takes the shot it makes them no different than someone who does hunt with dogs.  Because the fact remains the deer was still shot while being ran by dogs and if a person thinks it is so unethical then they would not shoot the deer, and simply let it walk on by.  Ok ya'll must have some super dogs in Illionois because I have never seen dogs catch a deer that was not injured to start with.  The fact is a healthy deer can and will outrun any pack of dogs, I have seen it too many times not to think so.  Once again it all goes back to experience how can anyone that has never done this type of hunting think they know more about it than someone who has done it for basically their whole life.  That is just like a job someone with more experience will train the ones who have never done it before.  Although I will concede this much to you the deer you hunt are not used to being chased all the time by dogs, and the deer I hunt have been being chased basically all their lives so maybe the reason I have not seen it is because the deer down here have been conditioned through the years to being chased.  I have seen a yearling deer give the dogs the run of their life and the dogs give up with their tounges hangin on the ground and the deer never break stride and just keep going.  Now answer the question as it was asked, would you take the shot on the deer and be truthful.

[JPH]

ORIGINAL: EatDeer
Like I stated, deer are not  predators or ferral, and that is the difference. As for how IL. laws are keeping dogs from being turned lose on deer, they attain that goal by imposing fines or jail time for the owners of such dogs. Why I am here? Well it is a disscussion forum, whether someone likes mine or anyone elses opinions or not, doesn't matter. Instead of making personal attacks questioning someone's reasons to be involved in a public forum, maybe you should just use the ignore feature. I think it's pretty clear why most of us are here debating the issues. You would fight dogging deer in IA, but would dog deer in the south, that is the very essence of hypocritical. My belief ,and others is that dogging deer is unethical, and demeaning to the sport of hunting. It is a opinion, nothing more.

 
EatDeer you have misread my previous post.
 
1. I do not understand why predators do not deserve the same ethical treatment that a deer does.
 
2.I did not suggest that dogs are turned loose on deer in Il. I suggested that dogs are turned loose on coyotes and they have no understanding of the game laws once they are out of sight of their owners. They seem no less likely to maul a deer than deer hounds.
 
3.You are correct, this is a discussion forum. It is not (IMO) a platform to impose your opinions on others. I just think there should be a certain degree of openess to new ideas.
 
4. My position on dogging in IA vs. the South is not hypocritical in the least. IA is meeting it's conservation goals without dogging. IA does not have large expanses of pine forest or swamp where dogs can fun w/o crossing property lines. But the conservation goals and the landscape do seem to allow for this in the South. I do not use a rifle in IA but I do in MO,because of the respective laws. It is no less hypocritical.
 
5.Most importantlly, my rebuttals were, and are, directed at your position and reasoning. They are in no way directed at your person. I want you to know that I have no issue with you as a person. I do not know you. But if I have in some way hurt your feelings, I am sorry.

[EatDeer]

ORIGINAL: tbone3

Ok first you dodged the question, simply answer would you take the shot.  And as a matter of fact the deer do get a long ways ahead of the dogs, I have seen it many of times the deer run a ways and then stop.  Even in front of a fast pack of walkers.  And if the person takes the shot it makes them no different than someone who does hunt with dogs.  Because the fact remains the deer was still shot while being ran by dogs and if a person thinks it is so unethical then they would not shoot the deer, and simply let it walk on by.  Ok ya'll must have some super dogs in Illionois because I have never seen dogs catch a deer that was not injured to start with.  The fact is a healthy deer can and will outrun any pack of dogs, I have seen it too many times not to think so.  Once again it all goes back to experience how can anyone that has never done this type of hunting think they know more about it than someone who has done it for basically their whole life.  That is just like a job someone with more experience will train the ones who have never done it before.  Although I will concede this much to you the deer you hunt are not used to being chased all the time by dogs, and the deer I hunt have been being chased basically all their lives so maybe the reason I have not seen it is because the deer down here have been conditioned through the years to being chased.  I have seen a yearling deer give the dogs the run of their life and the dogs give up with their tounges hangin on the ground and the deer never break stride and just keep going.  Now answer the question as it was asked, would you take the shot on the deer and be truthful.

 I think I was clear enough, you just  didnt get to see what you wanted. It's not about if anyone has dogged deer or not, it's about our opinions on the issue. Also, You won't be training me to do the deer dogging job anytime soon.  The fact is that dogs can run down and corner a deer, or even ambush the deer, and kill it, just as they can run down hogs, or coyotes.  Here is a few words of advice for you never say never, when your talking about hunting.   [;)]