Hunting with Dogs

[EatDeer]

ORIGINAL: JPH

ORIGINAL: EatDeer
Like I stated, deer are not  predators or ferral, and that is the difference. As for how IL. laws are keeping dogs from being turned lose on deer, they attain that goal by imposing fines or jail time for the owners of such dogs. Why I am here? Well it is a disscussion forum, whether someone likes mine or anyone elses opinions or not, doesn't matter. Instead of making personal attacks questioning someone's reasons to be involved in a public forum, maybe you should just use the ignore feature. I think it's pretty clear why most of us are here debating the issues. You would fight dogging deer in IA, but would dog deer in the south, that is the very essence of hypocritical. My belief ,and others is that dogging deer is unethical, and demeaning to the sport of hunting. It is a opinion, nothing more.

EatDeer you have misread my previous post.

1. I do not understand why predators do not deserve the same ethical treatment that a deer does.

2.I did not suggest that dogs are turned loose on deer in Il. I suggested that dogs are turned loose on coyotes and they have no understanding of the game laws once they are out of sight of their owners. They seem no less likely to maul a deer than deer hounds.

3.You are correct, this is a discussion forum. It is not (IMO) a platform to impose your opinions on others. I just think there should be a certain degree of openess to new ideas.

4. My position on dogging in IA vs. the South is not hypocritical in the least. IA is meeting it's conservation goals without dogging. IA does not have large expanses of pine forest or swamp where dogs can fun w/o crossing property lines. But the conservation goals and the landscape do seem to allow for this in the South. I do not use a rifle in IA but I do in MO,because of the respective laws. It is no less hypocritical.

5.Most importantlly, my rebuttals were, and are, directed at your position and reasoning. They are in no way directed at your person. I want you to know that I have no issue with you as a person. I do not know you. But if I have in some way hurt your feelings, I am sorry.

I have no problem with anyone on this fourm, just a difference of opinon. I can take a joke, no big deal. The southern states have thier share of tresspass issues conserning dogging deer, you only have to read some of the other posts to relise it. Dogging deer isn't a "new idea" , and I was open minded to the method at one time. However after seeing it done on tv, and witnessing coyotes, and hogs being dogged. I have devoloped an new opinion and beliefs that dogging deer isn't good for the image of hunters in the public's view.   While the coyote dogs do occasionaly chase the deer, the majority of the dogs stay on the trail of the coyotes. This is a small price to pay for the control of a over-populated predator. Deer are not predators, and I don't think predators should be equally "treated" like deer.  

[Squirrelhawker]

I haven't had time to read all the post here but this one is pretty easy to get the drift of I would think.

These kinds of discussions are fueled by the same things that fuel the origins of the various laws themselves- history, customs, opinions and geography.

Thinking that hunting deer with dogs is somehow unethical just makes no sense. It is purely convention driven. Common in the deep south for the same reasons buckshot is used- heavy cover. Anyone thinking that the use of a dog, no matter how skilled, would provide an unfair advantage in hunting them is IMO not thinking clearly. The use of dogs in predator hunting merely reinforces this fact. And illuminates the way predators have been viewed particularly in say NY.

These kinds of things while providing lively debate can quickly divide us as hunters.



Okay somebody post on crossbows now[;)]

[hunter480]

ORIGINAL: passin through

Apologies for any implied threat.  I worked very hard not to sound threatening in anyway...I thought.  As to the rest of your post ..... I'm not trying to change your mind as I stated in my original post, just share some of my own experience which is not insubstantial on the subject.

 
Apologies extended here too. It`s a huge cultural difference, and emotions can run high. It`s all good.

[passin through]

ORIGINAL: Squirrelhawker



Okay somebody post on crossbows now[;)]

 
hey Squirrel --- check out the breaking news forum..... Thread titled "several states to legalize crossbow usage"   10 pages!!![:D][:D]

[passin through]

All Good![:D]
 
It is funny though, how the cultural differences over this subject have formed.  I mean I have read hunting histories and heard the stories about the use of dogs in hunting going way back .....like before the pilgrims.  On this continent the american indians had hunting dogs and in europe where they could hunting dogs were used on a variety of game animals.  In fact I seem to remember the last whitetail Teddy Rosevelt killed before moving in at the white house was a deer in front of a hound.  That was at his ranch out west but I know for a fact he visited Mississippi's famed 10 point deer club after his presidency to run hounds in the south.  My rambling point is though ....why all the negativity in the past 50 odd years?  Is it the advent of technologies that make all hunting more effective?  Camo, new ammo, 4 wheelers,ect ect ect?  Is it more hunters in the woods? Just pondering as to why a method of hunting or an aid to hunters that has been in use since the dog was domesticated  (and probably one of the key reasons he was domesticated)...why is it suddenly held to be so evil by recent generations?

[JPH]

I can add a couple more well known historical dog hunters, that might strike a cord, to the list.
 
John Cheaney, famous Adarondack guide. And Saint Hubert, Patron of Hunters.
 
Again, my issue is baised on property rights, not concern for the deer. I suspect that this is one reason why there is such a stigma attached to dogging deer today. The landscape is much more fragmented than it was 50-100 years ago.

[passin through]

I would agree with you on that JPH.....small plots of land used to be what was reguarded as what it took to feed your family...now you have 5's, 10's 20's popping up here and there that people hunt and even though it is small acrage ...lots of them don't want dogs or dog hunters or hunters in general on thier property or around it. 

[gutpile]

 Never have hunted deer with dogs, killed many bear, cats and coons over me hounds, But running deer with dogs ain't legal here..Now every once in awhile one of my young dogs would run a deer, elk, coyote ect, and when I caught em they would think twice about doing it again. But I have no problem with doggin deer, I would try it but don't have any plans to anytime soon.

 I seen elk and deer run till they look like they are gonna drop, tounges out and panting and see them again later doing just fine.

[Woods Walker]

I have never hunted deer with deer hounds. But I have hunted over beagles for rabbits.
 
With rabbit hunting, you DO NOT want the dogs to be able to catch up with the rabbit. You want them to be just able to scent the rabbit and run....no....MOVE it along so the rabbit presents you with a shot, many times in which the rabbit is slowly moving ahead of the dogs, or maybe even standing still listening for them.
 
From what I've read and heard about deer hounds (not feral cur packs), that's pretty much the same thing you want them to do, as whitetails do act a lot like rabbits in their escape habits.
 
The big difference with deer and deer hounds, is the size of the area this happens in as opposed to beagles and rabbits.
 
Any of you doggers please correct me if I'm wrong about this.

[hunter480]

ORIGINAL: Woods Walker

I have never hunted deer with deer hounds. But I have hunted over beagles for rabbits.
 
With rabbit hunting, you DO NOT want the dogs to be able to catch up with the rabbit. You want them to be just able to scent the rabbit and run....no....MOVE it along so the rabbit presents you with a shot, many times in which the rabbit is slowly moving ahead of the dogs, or maybe even standing still listening for them.
 
From what I've read and heard about deer hounds (not feral cur packs), that's pretty much the same thing you want them to do, as whitetails do act a lot like rabbits in their escape habits.
 
The big difference with deer and deer hounds, is the size of the area this happens in as opposed to beagles and rabbits.
 
Any of you doggers please correct me if I'm wrong about this.

 
Hunting with dogs in Indiana is against the law, but when I`ve seen dogs running deer, they`ve been run hard, with the dog(s) in hot pursuit, right on their tail. Nothing like a beagle running rabbits. Granted, these are not dogs kept for running deer, but you won`t convince me that dogs running deer where that type of hunting is lawful, don`t run them just like the dogs here do.