The Foundation of your Hunting Ethics

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hunter480
 
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RE: The Foundation of your Hunting Ethics

Postby hunter480 » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:35 am

ORIGINAL: shaman








Regarding Hunting: One shot-one kill is a dream for sofa jockies. Be prepared to take the first best shot you can. Shoot. Re-acquire your target, and keep firing in a controlled fashion until you are either a) out of ammo, b) the target has disappeared c) the target is down d) the target has moved out of position. There will be no golfer's syndrome in the ranks.   The ideal shot is one where the animal falls dead in your sights with the second round loaded and the rifle returned to battery.  The second best is an empty magazine, a smoking rifle, a steaming carcass on the ground, and three shots into the boiler room before the deer got 10 yards.  Also: if you like what 30-06 can do at 100 yards, you should see what it does at 10 yards.

Wow-I don`t know quite what to say. I`m torn between trying to remain civil, and at the same time, wanting to tear your head off.
 
I`m not a sofa jocky, and I DO NOT take the first, best shot I can. I wait for the angle and position I need for your "mythical" one-shot-kill, or I DON`T SHOOT. Most of the deer I`ve killed have indeed ben one-shot-kills.
 
And ..."Reacquire your target and continue firing.......? Are you freaking kidding me!!!!!
 
IF you wait for a GOOD, killing shot into the vitals, ONE shot is all that`s needed. Most white-tails are going to run at the shot-few fall dead where they stand, but deer that are hit well, will be recovered? Why would you continue to throw lead, adding even more fear to the animal, and endangering any other hunter in the area? I`ve heard the guys like that during deer season. If they shoot once, they shoot 5 times, until their shotgun is empty. If the first shot, and a calm, motionless deer didn`t put him down, the next 4, thrown at a wildly bounding animal certainly won`t.
 
YOU are a slob hunter, and I don`t know what ethics you profess, but it`s clearly nothing but talk.

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Woods Walker
 
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RE: The Foundation of your Hunting Ethics

Postby Woods Walker » Tue Jul 15, 2008 12:10 pm

Isn't it just lovely when we can keep these discussions so upbeat and non-personal?  [;)]

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passin through
 
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RE: The Foundation of your Hunting Ethics

Postby passin through » Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:57 pm

Lovely just Lovely  Should be tea and crumpets time somewhere[:D]

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JPH
 
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RE: The Foundation of your Hunting Ethics

Postby JPH » Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:37 pm

ORIGINAL: hunter480
YOU are a slob hunter, and I don`t know what ethics you profess, but it`s clearly nothing but talk.

 
I did not agree with his comments re. one shot kills either, but come on H480. A little aggressive, don't you think?
 
Friends have to keep one another honest. I know you're better than that.

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passin through
 
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RE: The Foundation of your Hunting Ethics

Postby passin through » Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:49 pm

ORIGINAL: hunter480

ORIGINAL: shaman








Regarding Hunting: One shot-one kill is a dream for sofa jockies. Be prepared to take the first best shot you can. Shoot. Re-acquire your target, and keep firing in a controlled fashion until you are either a) out of ammo, b) the target has disappeared c) the target is down d) the target has moved out of position. There will be no golfer's syndrome in the ranks.   The ideal shot is one where the animal falls dead in your sights with the second round loaded and the rifle returned to battery.  The second best is an empty magazine, a smoking rifle, a steaming carcass on the ground, and three shots into the boiler room before the deer got 10 yards.  Also: if you like what 30-06 can do at 100 yards, you should see what it does at 10 yards.

Wow-I don`t know quite what to say. I`m torn between trying to remain civil, and at the same time, wanting to tear your head off.

I`m not a sofa jocky, and I DO NOT take the first, best shot I can. I wait for the angle and position I need for your "mythical" one-shot-kill, or I DON`T SHOOT. Most of the deer I`ve killed have indeed ben one-shot-kills.

And ..."Reacquire your target and continue firing.......? Are you freaking kidding me!!!!!

IF you wait for a GOOD, killing shot into the vitals, ONE shot is all that`s needed. Most white-tails are going to run at the shot-few fall dead where they stand, but deer that are hit well, will be recovered? Why would you continue to throw lead, adding even more fear to the animal, and endangering any other hunter in the area? I`ve heard the guys like that during deer season. If they shoot once, they shoot 5 times, until their shotgun is empty. If the first shot, and a calm, motionless deer didn`t put him down, the next 4, thrown at a wildly bounding animal certainly won`t.

YOU are a slob hunter, and I don`t know what ethics you profess, but it`s clearly nothing but talk.


I think we have probably let regional differences at least flavor this one here.  However, this is relatively civil post considering your obvious strong convictions on the matter.  Thanks for that.  However I believe on this matter I must side with the gentleman from Kentucky.  I do have a few points to ponder or maybe straighten out from just my personal observations. 
One) Accepted you are not a sofa jocky.  Based on your posts I take it as fact that you are a hunter of both skill and experience.

Two)  If you do not take the first best shot that is your choice to make.  I believe he was expressing what he believes to be the best thing to do.  My question would be why on earth would you not?  Best shot as being descibed as the first one you are happy with.  Thus the good vital shot you mentioned.

Three)  _____  happens.  Sometimes more than one shot is required.  The deer moved or the rifle was off, or the stand literally falls apart when you put pressure on the rest(not a good feeling)

Four) If you already have a iffy hole in the animal and can get a clean shot why on earth would you not fire again?  I mean I understand the part about not adding to the animals fear.  But the fact is I am there to kill and eat him.  Three shots from a 12 ga might scare him a bit more than a one shot drop, but not nearly as bad as being eaten alive by wild dogs or coyotes or buzzards.  Shamans system has a distinct military feal to me.  In fact my Grandfather taught us the same one based on hard won experience, but he wasn't talking about deer (it works with them too)

five) I agree with you completely on the hunter that blasts away on opening morning until empty, reloads and empty's again.  I hear them every year.  However, I do think though that Shaman was talking more about aimed fire rather than indiscriminate brush shots and again by the flavor of his earlier posts I am taking for granted that he has a bit of experience and is not going to fire in an unsafe manner or direction.

I do agree that there is such as a one shot kill and when I am using a rifle I go for that shot.  My personal one shot drop (notice I said drop not kill...thats understood)  I shoot a standing broadside deer through the point of his shoulders.  I'm not concerned about the shoulders because, again personally, I grind this area any way.  It may be old news to some but I have always used it and have yet to have one do more than flop a body length or two.  I tested it pretty conclusively with a modern rifle growing up and in the last 3 years before I decided to carry a muzzle loader even during modern gun, that shot accounted for 15 plus deer.  With a bow or a muzzleloader or a shotgun(buckshot) I go for double lung, each weapon for different reasons.  None are one shot drops but usually one shot kills.
As far as his ethics go I don't know the guy but I like the way he talks.  As far as mine go, believe what I write or don't, I'll live them anyway.  Apologies in advance if I sound like a prig but I don't particularly care for name calling.
 

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shaman
 
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RE: The Foundation of your Hunting Ethics

Postby shaman » Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:28 pm

ORIGINAL: hunter480


Wow-I don`t know quite what to say. I`m torn between trying to remain civil, and at the same time, wanting to tear your head off.

I`m not a sofa jocky, and I DO NOT take the first, best shot I can. I wait for the angle and position I need for your "mythical" one-shot-kill, or I DON`T SHOOT. Most of the deer I`ve killed have indeed ben one-shot-kills.

And ..."Reacquire your target and continue firing.......? Are you freaking kidding me!!!!!

IF you wait for a GOOD, killing shot into the vitals, ONE shot is all that`s needed. Most white-tails are going to run at the shot-few fall dead where they stand, but deer that are hit well, will be recovered? Why would you continue to throw lead, adding even more fear to the animal, and endangering any other hunter in the area? I`ve heard the guys like that during deer season. If they shoot once, they shoot 5 times, until their shotgun is empty. If the first shot, and a calm, motionless deer didn`t put him down, the next 4, thrown at a wildly bounding animal certainly won`t.

YOU are a slob hunter, and I don`t know what ethics you profess, but it`s clearly nothing but talk.



First off, I've been wanting all my life to meet up with a true slob hunter.  I've met a lot of sofa jockies, and a lot of posers that probably would have qualified if they had ever gotten out and hunted.  Most all of what I've met in the field were gentlemen.  Great Glorious Day!  Here come to find out it was me all along.  Shucks.

Second, I will point out that you may be one too.  Let's just see here. . . ah!

ORIGINAL: hunter480

 Most of the deer I`ve killed have indeed ben (SP?) one-shot-kills.



Ooops!  What's this "most" bit?  "Most" as in 99.99%?  "Most" as in 80%? What about the others.  That was my buddies' point to me. That is my point to everyone.   Don't come unglued here,  you may be wanting to pull my head off, but all I'm doing is pulling your leg on this.  You just happen to be way to easy.

A lot of hunters have something in the back of their heads that tells them one shot will do it.  You are absolutely correct that usually a well placed shot brings the animal down and usually if it does not, they run off out of sight in a flash.  Any moron trying to shoot at a running deer in the crowded woods needs to be taken out and flogged.  So far, I can sense we have agreement.

HOWEVER. . .

Most of my deer also just fall over dead-- poleaxed, DRT'd, brung down the curtain and joined the choir invisible.  Remember, I too take the "first best shot" I can.  I'm a boiler room kind of guy-- no heads, necks or the other stuff. USUALLY it's the case that one shot is going to do it. USUALLY one shot is also all I get too. My deer run just as fast as yours, and I'll be fifty when I hit the woods next time-- too slow to react and going blind to boot.  If I dreamed about making miracle shots in my youth, that dream is long ago dead.

But once in a while,  you get the oddball thown at you.  I've had a few. I can bet you have too ( you still haven't told me what MOST meant, right?)  A bullet glances off an unseen twig, or some other freak event, and the deer just stands there and looks at you.  Now what?

Most guys get a little unnerved.  They hesitate.  You don't know if you missed or what.  Now what do you do?

I just happened to have learned my hunting from old combat vets.  Their answer was bone chilling, but highly practical.  When you shoot, you do not stop shooting until the target is down.  Your focus is not on the deer, but on a patch of hair or more precisely the soccer ball-sized target behind it.  You do not take your mind off that target until you are sure:

A)  The target is down and not getting back up.
B)  The target cannot be safely shot again
C)  The target has disappeared from view.

I never saw this in print, and I never heard this discussed elsewhere until about 9 years ago.  An African Professional Hunter who  goes by JJHack was discussing the failings of his American clients.  The biggest problem was what he called "Golfer's Syndrome."  The client shoots, and the puts his rifle down to see what happens.   They are dumbstruck when the beast looks at them and then saunters off.

You are right, the perfect one shot you've made may be fatal. That deer may wander off a bit and fall over. Then again it may have been that 1% (20%? You never did specify ), and all you get is a drop or two of blood on a leaf and then nothing.

JJHack, my old buddies, and I all believed in taking a baseball bat to the idea of one-shot one- kill.  You need to get it out of your mind.   Every hunter needs to prepare for the eventuality that one shot is not going to do it, at least not immediately. A second, a third may be required from the hunter. The hunter has to be able to make that commitment and follow through.

99 % of this is just preparation and willingness.  In the past 25 seasons, I've had to put follow-up shots into a deer only three times.  Sometimes, both lungs and the heart are totally involved and the deer still stands there looking at you.  Sometimes they even go back to feeding.  I had a yearling doe in 2002 that took three from a 30-30 at less than 20 yards and then walked off  with an arterial spurter going 6 feet into the trees. 

The big points in all this are:

1)  You aren't a slob if you take a another shot, as long as it is a controlled shot. 
2)  You do the deer no great favor by holding off.  The whole point of this is to bring on a state of unconsciousness as soon as humanly possible-- (otherwise the gutting process gets really complex, right?)
3)  You can beat yourself up over those follow-up shots, or accept that some are going to have to be made. I'm in the latter camp.
4) It is all about the mental preparation.  Your best shot is the one where the deer falls over in your sights with the second round jacked in and the rifle returned to battery.  That means a) you were there to make the second shot, but b) it was unneeded.
5) You have to have enough situational awareness to also see beyond the soccer ball.  If it's skylit, or if you're just not sure what's behind it, that barrel has to come up.

There.  I've said it.  Now I can go lie in my slob bed, and close my slob eyes and dream slob dreams.  Thanks all for having me in. 
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gutpile
 
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RE: The Foundation of your Hunting Ethics

Postby gutpile » Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:00 pm

One shots don't work very well with elk most times, exspecially if you are tracking them and their adrenilin is up, I watched heart shot elk run off like they weren't hit, go couple hundred yards...weird when you dress em and find they were heart shot and kept going...
Wheat is harvested, Animals are killed...

hunter480
 
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RE: The Foundation of your Hunting Ethics

Postby hunter480 » Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:44 pm

ORIGINAL: shaman

ORIGINAL: hunter480


Wow-I don`t know quite what to say. I`m torn between trying to remain civil, and at the same time, wanting to tear your head off.

I`m not a sofa jocky, and I DO NOT take the first, best shot I can. I wait for the angle and position I need for your "mythical" one-shot-kill, or I DON`T SHOOT. Most of the deer I`ve killed have indeed ben one-shot-kills.

And ..."Reacquire your target and continue firing.......? Are you freaking kidding me!!!!!

IF you wait for a GOOD, killing shot into the vitals, ONE shot is all that`s needed. Most white-tails are going to run at the shot-few fall dead where they stand, but deer that are hit well, will be recovered? Why would you continue to throw lead, adding even more fear to the animal, and endangering any other hunter in the area? I`ve heard the guys like that during deer season. If they shoot once, they shoot 5 times, until their shotgun is empty. If the first shot, and a calm, motionless deer didn`t put him down, the next 4, thrown at a wildly bounding animal certainly won`t.

YOU are a slob hunter, and I don`t know what ethics you profess, but it`s clearly nothing but talk.



First off, I've been wanting all my life to meet up with a true slob hunter.  I've met a lot of sofa jockies, and a lot of posers that probably would have qualified if they had ever gotten out and hunted.  Most all of what I've met in the field were gentlemen.  Great Glorious Day!  Here come to find out it was me all along.  Shucks.

Second, I will point out that you may be one too.  Let's just see here. . . ah!

ORIGINAL: hunter480

Most of the deer I`ve killed have indeed ben (SP?) one-shot-kills.



Ooops!  What's this "most" bit?  "Most" as in 99.99%?  "Most" as in 80%? What about the others.  That was my buddies' point to me. That is my point to everyone.   Don't come unglued here,  you may be wanting to pull my head off, but all I'm doing is pulling your leg on this.  You just happen to be way to easy.

A lot of hunters have something in the back of their heads that tells them one shot will do it.  You are absolutely correct that usually a well placed shot brings the animal down and usually if it does not, they run off out of sight in a flash.  Any moron trying to shoot at a running deer in the crowded woods needs to be taken out and flogged.  So far, I can sense we have agreement.

HOWEVER. . .

Most of my deer also just fall over dead-- poleaxed, DRT'd, brung down the curtain and joined the choir invisible.  Remember, I too take the "first best shot" I can.  I'm a boiler room kind of guy-- no heads, necks or the other stuff. USUALLY it's the case that one shot is going to do it. USUALLY one shot is also all I get too. My deer run just as fast as yours, and I'll be fifty when I hit the woods next time-- too slow to react and going blind to boot.  If I dreamed about making miracle shots in my youth, that dream is long ago dead.

But once in a while,  you get the oddball thown at you.  I've had a few. I can bet you have too ( you still haven't told me what MOST meant, right?)  A bullet glances off an unseen twig, or some other freak event, and the deer just stands there and looks at you.  Now what?

Most guys get a little unnerved.  They hesitate.  You don't know if you missed or what.  Now what do you do?

I just happened to have learned my hunting from old combat vets.  Their answer was bone chilling, but highly practical.  When you shoot, you do not stop shooting until the target is down.  Your focus is not on the deer, but on a patch of hair or more precisely the soccer ball-sized target behind it.  You do not take your mind off that target until you are sure:

A)  The target is down and not getting back up.
B)  The target cannot be safely shot again
C)  The target has disappeared from view.

I never saw this in print, and I never heard this discussed elsewhere until about 9 years ago.  An African Professional Hunter who  goes by JJHack was discussing the failings of his American clients.  The biggest problem was what he called "Golfer's Syndrome."  The client shoots, and the puts his rifle down to see what happens.   They are dumbstruck when the beast looks at them and then saunters off.

You are right, the perfect one shot you've made may be fatal. That deer may wander off a bit and fall over. Then again it may have been that 1% (20%? You never did specify ), and all you get is a drop or two of blood on a leaf and then nothing.

JJHack, my old buddies, and I all believed in taking a baseball bat to the idea of one-shot one- kill.  You need to get it out of your mind.   Every hunter needs to prepare for the eventuality that one shot is not going to do it, at least not immediately. A second, a third may be required from the hunter. The hunter has to be able to make that commitment and follow through.

99 % of this is just preparation and willingness.  In the past 25 seasons, I've had to put follow-up shots into a deer only three times.  Sometimes, both lungs and the heart are totally involved and the deer still stands there looking at you.  Sometimes they even go back to feeding.  I had a yearling doe in 2002 that took three from a 30-30 at less than 20 yards and then walked off  with an arterial spurter going 6 feet into the trees. 

The big points in all this are:

1)  You aren't a slob if you take a another shot, as long as it is a controlled shot. 
2)  You do the deer no great favor by holding off.  The whole point of this is to bring on a state of unconsciousness as soon as humanly possible-- (otherwise the gutting process gets really complex, right?)
3)  You can beat yourself up over those follow-up shots, or accept that some are going to have to be made. I'm in the latter camp.
4) It is all about the mental preparation.  Your best shot is the one where the deer falls over in your sights with the second round jacked in and the rifle returned to battery.  That means a) you were there to make the second shot, but b) it was unneeded.
5) You have to have enough situational awareness to also see beyond the soccer ball.  If it's skylit, or if you're just not sure what's behind it, that barrel has to come up.

There.  I've said it.  Now I can go lie in my slob bed, and close my slob eyes and dream slob dreams.  Thanks all for having me in. 

 
Was I harsh in my initial reaction to your post? Maybe, but I bristle at your attitude.
 
As for what "most" means, in my approximately 15 years of hunting white-tails, I have had 2 deer run after the shot, all others dropped where they stood, or fell within sight. And there were 2 deer that I never recovered.
 
Absolutely "it" happens, you take the very best shot you can, but for whatever reason, the deer isn`t recovered.
 
And I`m confused by your last post-in one sentence you say that you agree with the one-shot-kill, then a little further into  it, you state that, you are taking a ball bat to the one-shot-kill, get it out of your head. Which is it?
 
I`m going to say that we`ll have to just disagree on this point, as the one-shot-kill is absolutely a reality, and if you`ve taken a good shot, there`s simply no need to continue firing away. You learned your hunting technique from old military guys, but game animals aren`t dangerous combatants, there`s no reason to "shoot till they stop twitching".

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shaman
 
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RE: The Foundation of your Hunting Ethics

Postby shaman » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:12 am

I think it will be easier to understand my position, if you understand that  the idea is to get to the same place.  The normal deer is going to take a round in the chest and either go down like a sack of potatoes or run like mad for a few yards and pile up. That's what you want. That is not what you should expect. The reality of it is that you a certain number that do neither.

That is why I said that you have to keep one-shot one-kill out of your head.  In order to be prepared for the eventuality, you have to believe that your first shot is not going to put the animal down. This takes a cold-bloodedness that frankly most men don't like feeling in themselves, but it is just as much a part of the hunt as the backslapping at the fire and the tall stories you get to tell at the barbershop. We really want it to all end with one shot. You may even pray for it, but the Good Lord sometimes has other ideas.

I got into this argument with a mad Scotsman online many years ago.  He wanted to rip my head off too. I think he also wanted me to do some things that were frankly anatomically impossible.  He considered himself a consumate hunter. He bloviated about precision, love for the animal, etc.  However, if you dug down under the surface, you would find out that despite the protestations, even he had been forced to put a second one into a few of his kills.  The difference was he was Sportsman, shooting with his precision-instrument 6mm, and I was booger eating moron with my 30-06 semi.

What Jerry, Bob, John and the others taught me was to approach it the other way.  Take the shot, and save all the internal celebration until after the toes go up in the air.  Work the action, bring another round in, bring the rifle back into battery, re-acquire the target . . .  it is  mental follow through. Be prepared to do this until the magazine is spent. Be happily surprised when the crosshairs pick up only four hooves after the first shot.

The part about shooting until they stop twitching must have come from some other slob.  No. The twitching  means the CNS has been disrupted. The animal is down and unconscious.  Shooting then would be just plain . . . icky.

You're right. Some of these guys were combat vets, but we were discussing  the foundation of our ethics.  Usually at this point in the conversation, John would have to get up and go in the other room.  Stuff happened up on the Sigfried Line that winter that he never directly talked about.  However, he could get mighty adamant when it came to keeping your head down on the stock and following through.

By the way, I normally hunt with only three rounds.  I figured out that my body is too shook up after three to make a controlled shot. I had hunted with a slug gun in Ohio where you must have the plug in.  After I emigrated to KY, (which allows up to a 10-round magazine) , I put my trusty 10-round mag onto the Remington 742 and tried to hold it on a pie plate at fifty yards offhand.  Nope.  The rifle might go ten, but the hunter only holds up for three.  If it ever has to go beyond three,  it's time for the shaman to sit down and re-think the strategy.  The 10 round magazine got put back in the closet next to the soup-bowl helmet-- I'll be the old fart defending the nursing home from the Russian rape gangs.

Your stats are only slightly worse than mine.  In 25 years, I've only lost one, and it was from a muzzleloader.  That doesn't give either one of us reason to cheer. It just proves that most deer go down with one shot, and the rest of this is just a couple of guys trying to fill the empty time before season starts.
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RE: The Foundation of your Hunting Ethics

Postby JPH » Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:19 am

ORIGINAL: shaman
Your stats are only slightly worse than mine.  In 25 years, I've only lost one, and it was from a muzzleloader.  That doesn't give either one of us reason to cheer. It just prooves that most deer go down with one shot, and the rest of this is just a couple of guys trying to fill the empty time before season starts.

 
Bravo!
 
Shaman, I've followed your posts and I like you.
 
Hunter480, we go way back to the old forum and you're my internet brother.
 
You're not so far apart guys. Can everyone take one step back and ease of the trigger?

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