2nd amendment

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ranwin33
 
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RE: 2nd amendment

Postby ranwin33 » Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:07 am

ORIGINAL: JPH
The rights listed in the first ten amendments are God given or inalienable. The framers simply acknowledged them and vowed to protect them. A right cannot be taken away by man, it can only be infringed upon (even to the point of death).

 
So God came down from heaven and said here, you have these rights?  Can't say I've seen them mentioned in the Bible either.  I think you're confusing amendments with commandments.  If they were God given every person would have them, and every person doesn't.  Additionally, these rights would be world wide, some don't even apply outside the United States.

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JPH
 
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RE: 2nd amendment

Postby JPH » Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:37 am

ORIGINAL: ranwin33

ORIGINAL: JPH
The rights listed in the first ten amendments are God given or inalienable. The framers simply acknowledged them and vowed to protect them. A right cannot be taken away by man, it can only be infringed upon (even to the point of death).


So God came down from heaven and said here, you have these rights?  Can't say I've seen them mentioned in the Bible either.  I think you're confusing amendments with commandments.  If they were God given every person would have them, and every person doesn't.  Additionally, these rights would be world wide, some don't even apply outside the United States.

 
Well like I said, I shouldn't have even posted here, so this will be my last on this issue.
 
My point is that evey human being DOES have these rights, simply by virtue of being human. You are correct that in many places these rights are infringed uopn, but they still exist within the fabric of humanity. As Highland stated, they are part of the natural law.
 
Look at it this way; I assume that you believe that all humans have a right to be alive, regardless of where they are born. That does not deny that people are killed unjustly, but it does not revoke the right to live. While we may deny a person access to the right, we cannot deny its existance.
 
And yes, I do see these rights as consistant with Scripture and Sacred Tradition. The Ten Commandments are the foundation. The Beatitudes are the goal. The Bill of Rights fits in rather nicely along the way. But that is a discussion for another day. Feel free to PM me though. Peace.

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ranwin33
 
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RE: 2nd amendment

Postby ranwin33 » Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:46 am

ORIGINAL: hunter480
YOU are a frightening person...........

Everything from your view of this Administration, to your false belief that our Second Amendmet rights are safe no matter what, to YOUR prioritys.

So sorry that the war in Iraq doesn`t suit you, perhaps more devastation on U. S. soil suits you better.........

And as to your worries about what the rest of the world thinks of this Country, President said it best when the world, more specifically, France and Germany who were in bed with Iraq, were critical of us for invading, "We don`t need the worlds approval to protect America and American interests,"

I`d love to know how you can say that our Second Amendment rights will never be taken away. Until the recent Supreme Court Decision, it WAS taken away for law-abiding gun owners in Washington DC. Just as it`s gone for law-abiding gun owners in Chicago, which has a total ban on handguns. What news are you watching? What news are you reading?

What about the Klinton, so called, Assault Weapons Ban, which banned certain semi-auto weapons based purely on cosmetic appearance? Wasn`t that a loss of Second Amendment rights?

I too care for our environment, but when this economy, which is being drained by OPEC and big oil, is going down the tubes, we need to drill for domestic energy whenever, wherever we can. It`s pretty simple really.

For me, anyone who poo poo`s the very real threats we face every day, to our Second Amend rights, is as much a threat as those who wish to take those rights away. Whether your intent is to purposly mock what we risk losing, or whether you really just don`t get it, you`re certainly not an ally in the constant, and serious fight to keep our birthright.


ORIGINAL: Highlander Archery

If you think the Bill of Rights is a bunch of Privledges assigned by the Government, you are already lost to the left. No use arguing it anymore. I can cite documented proof from HUNDREDS of sources that would overload the server here, that will prove to you it is indeed natural law and that paramount to natural is the law of self preservation. 

 
A difference of opinion and out comes the name calling.

There are so many things wrong with these statements I can't help but shake may head and wonder what have we come to in America.  

Just FYI - everything I've ever read about God, he never mentioned Assault Weapons - but having them is our God given right??  What logic!  Nothing to do with the second amendment, and bush himself said he would have signed the bill if it got back through congress so don't blame it on Clinton.

Any rights to open up drilling today won't see results for at least 10 years and will do nothing to lower gas prices and assist us at this time. It will continue to line the pockets of oil companies and be disruptive to our environment.  Have you forgotten about the huge Chevron discovery in the Gulf of Mexico in 2006.  It should increase US oil reserves by nearly half, yet hasn't helped gas prices at all.  We'd be better off spending those next 10 years developing new and sustainable energy resources and eliminating the need for oil.  Here's a book, read it:  http://www.amazon.com/Earth-Sequel-Reinvent-Energy-Warming/dp/0393066908/ref=pd_bbs_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1215116032&sr=8-6  It provides much better alternatives then drilling for oil or mining coal.  If we're going to get stuck with high gas prices, let's do something to fix the problem, not continue it.

Documented proof, get real.  Documented proof would be a video of God saying these are God given rights.  Anything else is guesswork, unless you like bush have personal talks with God as well.  But go ahead and point me to the resource that cites God saying we have the right to keep and bear arms, or any of the other parts to the Bill of Rights.  You have hundreds, it shouldn't be hard.

It's been fun and as much as I enjoy a good philosophical discussion, I've got to be done - I suppose the next four years will determine who has the better judgement.  Let's hope whatever the future brings it's better than what we have now. 

Best of luck with your hunting this year.

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RE: 2nd amendment

Postby Highlander Archery » Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:17 pm

We are debating the 2nd Amendment and you bring the war, global warming and the miserable failures of this administration as arguing points? Sheesh you are too far gone to even waste anymore time on. Since you seem to have an aversion to God. Evolution demands the survival of the fittest. Only those who can defend themselves from becoming breakfast for bigger, badder creatures have the option to spread their seed to future generations and perpetuate the species.

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RE: 2nd amendment

Postby howhill1 » Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:18 pm

guys you cant have a battle of wits with an unarmed man. youll lose every time! the best we can do is to gather ourselves our families and friends and as many "bitter" people like us as we can rally to our cause to vote this mindset away. pro god pro life pro gun.
"please join the N.R.A. as well as your state rifle association! these are critical times for ALL gun owners. Be informed, be active and stay vigilant"

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RE: 2nd amendment

Postby Highlander Archery » Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:22 pm

ORIGINAL: howhill1

guys you cant have a battle of wits with an unarmed man. youll lose every time! the best we can do is to gather ourselves our families and friends and as many "bitter" people like us as we can rally to our cause to vote this mindset away. pro god pro life pro gun.


No loss here, he fears the mention of God, knows nothing of the Bill of Rights and basically has to interject pseudo science and a "Blame Bush" argument to deflect from the debate at hand. I see it every day and every day observers tell them they are off their rockers.

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RE: 2nd amendment

Postby Highlander Archery » Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:47 pm

Let's see what John Adams had to say to his wife on July 3, 1776.

http://www.masshist.org/digitaladams/aea/cfm/doc.cfm?id=L17760703jasecond

specific exerpt:
I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated, by succeeding Generations, as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance by solemn Acts of Devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with Pomp and Parade, with Shews, Games, Sports, Guns, Bells, Bonfires and Illuminations from one End of this Continent to the other from this Time forward forever more. You will think me transported with Enthusiasm but I am not. -- I am well aware of the Toil and Blood and Treasure, that it will cost Us to maintain this Declaration, and support and defend these States. -- Yet through all the Gloom I can see the Rays of ravishing Light and Glory. I can see that the End is more than worth all the Means. And that Posterity will tryumph in that Days Transaction, even altho We should rue it, which I trust in God We shall not.

Seems Mr. Adams himself predates guns to the Constitution.

Other pertinent referneces

Lets throw in Thomas Jefferson

Jefferson Excerpts:
"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed." --Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. ME 16:45 "One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them." --Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 1796. ME 9:341
"I learn with great concern that [one] portion of our frontier so interesting, so important, and so exposed, should be so entirely unprovided with common fire-arms. I did not suppose any part of the United States so destitute of what is considered as among the first necessaries of a farm-house." --Thomas Jefferson to Jacob J. Brown, 1808. ME 11:432
"No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms (within his own lands or tenements)." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution (with his note added), 1776. Papers 1:353
"None but an armed nation can dispense with a standing army. To keep ours armed and disciplined is therefore at all times important." --Thomas Jefferson to -----, 1803. ME 10:365

[size="5"]The Right to Bear Arms[/size]
[blockquote] In a nation governed by the people themselves, the possession of arms to defend their nation against usurpers within and without was deemed absolutely necessary. This right is protected by the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution. A gun was an everyday implement in early American society, and Jefferson recommended its use. "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun, therefore, be the constant companion of your walks." --Thomas Jefferson to Peter Carr, 1785. ME 5:85, Papers 8:407




[/blockquote]

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shadow
 
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RE: 2nd amendment

Postby shadow » Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:08 pm

This is a deer hunting forum..... but wow!
How I wish I had been a better student,  I really wish I knew more about some of these political issues, history, and the church than I do now.
Go on......

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RE: 2nd amendment

Postby Highlander Archery » Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:09 pm

How about the the rest of the founding fathers

[center][font="georgia, times new roman, times, serif"][size="5"]What the Framers said about our Second Amendment
Rights to Keep and Bear Arms[/size][/font]


[/center] [ul][*]"I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people, except for a few public officials."
- George Mason, in Debates in Virginia Convention on Ratification of the Constitution, Elliot, Vol. 3, June 16, 1788[/ul] [ul][*]"Whereas civil-rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as military forces, which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms."
[font="script mt bold"]-- Tench Coxe,[/font] in Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution[/ul] [ul][*]"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed."
[font="script mt bold"]-- Alexander Hamilton[/font], The Federalist Papers at 184-188[/ul] [ul][*]If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no recourse left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual State. In a single State, if the persons entrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair.
-- Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 28[/ul] [ul][*]"That the said Constitution shall never be construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms ... "
[font="script mt bold"]-- Samuel Adams[/font], Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, at 86-87 (Pierce & Hale, eds., Boston, 1850)[/ul] [ul][*]"[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
--James Madison, The Federalist Papers, No. 46[/ul] [ul][*] "To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws."
--John Adams, A Defense of the Constitutions of the United States 475 (1787-1788) [/ul] [ul][*]"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive."
--Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787). [/ul] [ul][*]"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American...[T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people."
--Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788. [/ul] [ul][*]"Whereas, to preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms, and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them; nor does it follow from this, that all promiscuously must go into actual service on every occasion. The mind that aims at a select militia, must be influenced by a truly anti-republican principle; and when we see many men disposed to practice upon it, whenever they can prevail, no wonder true republicans are for carefully guarding against it."
--Richard Henry Lee, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788. [/ul] [ul][*]"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356
[/ul] [ul][*]"No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson, Proposal Virginia Constitution, 1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334,[C.J. Boyd, Ed., 1950] [/ul] [ul][*]"The right of the people to keep and bear ... arms shall not be infringed. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, trained to arms, is the best and most natural defense of a free country ..."
-- James Madison, I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789[/ul] [ul][*]"What, Sir, is the use of a militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty .... Whenever Governments mean to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise an army upon their ruins."
-- Rep. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts, spoken during floor debate over the Second Amendment, I Annals of Congress at 750, August 17, 1789[/ul] [ul][*]" ... to disarm the people - that was the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
-- George Mason, 3 Elliot, Debates at 380[/ul] [ul][*]" ... but if circumstances should at any time oblige the government to form an army of any magnitude, that army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in discipline and use of arms, who stand ready to defend their rights ..."
-- Alexander Hamilton speaking of standing armies in Federalist 29[/ul] [ul][*]"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"
-- Patrick Henry, 3 J. Elliot, Debates in the Several State Conventions 45, 2d ed. Philadelphia, 1836[/ul] [ul][*]"The great object is, that every man be armed ... Every one who is able may have a gun."
-- Patrick Henry, Elliot, p.3:386[/ul] [ul][*]"O sir, we should have fine times, indeed, if, to punish tyrants, it were only sufficient to assemble the people! Your arms, wherewith you could defend yourselves, are gone ..."
-- Patrick Henry, Elliot p. 3:50-53, in Virginia Ratifying Convention demanding a guarantee of the right to bear arms[/ul] [ul][*]"The people are not to be disarmed of their weapons. They are left in full possession of them."
-- Zacharia Johnson, delegate to Virginia Ratifying Convention, Elliot, 3:645-6[/ul] [ul][*]"Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of citizens to keep and bear arms ... The right of citizens to bear arms is just one guarantee against arbitrary government, one more safeguard, against the tyranny which now appears remote in America but which historically has proven to be always possible."
-- Hubert H. Humphrey, Senator, Vice President, 22 October 1959[/ul] [ul][*]"The militia is the natural defense of a free country against sudden foreign invasions, domestic insurrections, and domestic usurpation of power by rulers. The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered, as the palladium of the liberties of the republic; since it offers a strong moral check against the usurpation and arbitrary power of rulers; and will generally ... enable the people to resist and triumph over them."
-- Joseph Story, Supreme Court Justice, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, p. 3:746-7, 1833[/ul] [ul][*]" ... most attractive to Americans, the possession of arms is the distinction between a freeman and a slave, it being the ultimate means by which freedom was to be preserved."
-- James Burgh, 18th century English Libertarian writer, Shalhope, The Ideological Origins of the Second Amendment, p.604[/ul] [ul][*]"The right [to bear arms] is general. It may be supposed from the phraseology of this provision that the right to keep and bear arms was only guaranteed to the militia; but this would be an interpretation not warranted by the intent. The militia, as has been explained elsewhere, consists of those persons who, under the laws, are liable to the performance of military duty, and are officered and enrolled for service when called upon.... f the right were limited to those enrolled, the purpose of the guarantee might be defeated altogether by the action or the neglect to act of the government it was meant to hold in check. The meaning of the provision undoubtedly is, that the people, from whom the militia must be taken, shall have the right to keep and bear arms, and they need no permission or regulation of law for the purpose. But this enables the government to have a well regulated militia; for to bear arms implies something more than mere keeping; it implies the learning to handle and use them in a way that makes those who keep them ready for their efficient use; in other words, it implies the right to meet for voluntary discipline in arms, observing in so doing the laws of public order."
-[i]- Thomas M. Cooley
, General Principles of Constitutional Law, Third Edition [1898][/ul] [ul][*]"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress ... to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms.... "
--Samuel Adams[/ul]

Highlander Archery
 
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RE: 2nd amendment

Postby Highlander Archery » Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:16 pm

ORIGINAL: shadow

This is a deer hunting forum..... but wow!
How I wish I had been a better student,  I really wish I knew more about some of these political issues, history, and the church than I do now.
Go on......

Learning is a lifetime pursuit, and since this thread was specific to the Heller case, these seem to belong here. By the way, to take this back to hunting....


The 2nd Amendment was never a protection on hunting, although hunting received benefit from its existence. Within the text of the Heller decision the right to keep and bear arms for lawful purposes including self defense and hunting are now codified and hunting is a clear beneficiary of the 2nd Amendment.

FROM HELLER DECISION PG 11
Some have made the argument, bordering on the frivolous,
that only those arms in existence in the 18th century
are protected by the Second Amendment. We do not interpret
constitutional rights that way. Just as the First
Amendment protects modern forms of communications,

e.g., Reno v. American Civil Liberties Union, 521 U. S. 844,
849 (1997), and the Fourth Amendment applies to modern
forms of search, e.g., Kyllo v. United States, 533 U. S. 27,
35–36 (2001), the Second Amendment extends, prima
facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms,
even those that were not in existence at the time of the
founding.



PG 29:
The prefatory clause does not suggest that preserving
the militia was the only reason Americans valued the
ancient right; most undoubtedly thought it even more
important for self-defense and hunting.
But the threat
that the new Federal Government would destroy the
citizens' militia by taking away their arms was the reason
that right-unlike some other English rights-was codified
in a written Constitution.

PG 49
"Some general knowledge of firearms is important to
the public welfare; because it would be impossible, in
case of war, to organize promptly an efficient force of
volunteers unless the people had some familiarity
with weapons of war. The Constitution secures the
right of the people to keep and bear arms. No doubt, a
citizen who keeps a gun or pistol under judicious precautions,
practices in safe places the use of it, and in
due time teaches his sons to do the same, exercises his
individual right. No doubt, a person whose residence
or duties involve peculiar peril may keep a pistol for
prudent self-defence." B. Abbott, Judge and Jury: A
Popular Explanation of the Leading Topics in the Law
of the Land 333 (1880) (hereinafter Abbott).

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