Reactions to King Buck Story

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Everyday Hunter
 
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Re: Reactions to King Buck Story

Postby Everyday Hunter » Fri May 06, 2011 3:39 pm

Marc:
Excellent response. Most of us know you're neither jealous nor a wanna be, so kudos for not responding to this part:
deerslayer1 wrote:that guy marc sounds like a typical jealous wanna be hunter.

I have a few questions about your response. First, to this:
Marc Anthony wrote:I also have shared up close pictures of the King head to local B&C scorers who have scored countless monster Illinois heads and they agree, it's a non typical point! If Jack knows it's a non typical point, why on earth is he obligated to have it panel scored when it doesn't meet the criteria for panel judgement?

Why would the judgment of whether it's a typical point or not be up to one person? If it's a potential world record, shouldn't the panel decide that? You mention criteria for panel scoring, but can't any buck be panel scored? Have the thing panel scored, and erase all questions. If Reneau is so certain the right G3 comes off the base of the G2, and as you say there is plenty of agreement, then why not step aside and have someone else make the call? He won't always have his current position anyway. (This is getting to sound like the question of whether MLB should let Pete Rose into the baseball Hall of Fame.)

Marc Anthony wrote:Who will gain from this head becoming a world record? The hunter? Not really, because he doesn't own the head. It would be the owner! I wonder how much he paid for a head that could possibly become the next world record?

The hunter will in fact gain. He killed the buck, so his name will always be attached to this head -- the owner's won't. He'll certainly get the fame (if he's interested in that), and the possible endorsements, speaking engagements, etc. Only he can tell the story of how he shot the buck. The owner's name will not always be attached to it. He can sell it, and after he passes away it will be owned by someone else. (Also, I fail to see why the price paid for the head should be an issue.)

Marc Anthony wrote:Before I reveal too much, I want to mention that I'm leading an investigation into this subject and may have some really interesting facts of interest. I'm not going to jump the gun but rather giving you the heads-up that there is more to come!

I look forward to that. Apparently you know some things that haven't been covered yet by D&DH.

Finally, I notice that the right G3 is not only shorter, but also smaller in circumference. I don't think the rules say anything about tine circumference, but can that influence the judgment call being made?

Lest anyone think I'm advocating for the King buck being declared the new world record, let me add one more thing. When a buck comes up against the current record holder, there needs to be no question. I'm neither advocating for nor against it. In fact, I'm pretty sure this isn't the only buck that has failed to top the Hansen buck -- and for the same reason.

Thanks.
Steve
When the Everyday Hunter isn't hunting, he's thinking about hunting, talking about hunting, dreaming about hunting, writing about hunting, or wishing he were hunting.
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ishman
 
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Re: Reactions to King Buck Story

Postby ishman » Fri May 06, 2011 4:38 pm

A few years back this same kind of situation occured with a buck shot somewhere in canada. I cant for the life of me remember the guys name or exactly where he was from. Everyone thought it was going to be the new archery world record. After scoring it was determined that the g2 and what wouldve been the g3 shared a common base which in turn badly hurt the score.
Eric

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Re: Reactions to King Buck Story

Postby Everyday Hunter » Fri May 06, 2011 4:57 pm

ishman wrote:A few years back this same kind of situation occured with a buck shot somewhere in canada.

Yes, you're recalling the Zaft buck, which had a preliminary score of 206 7/8 net points, but dropped to 172 5/8 when the official score was determined, based on judging the buck's right G2 to be an abnormal point. Here's the story: Wayne Zaft Buck, Edmonton, Alberta. I don't think that's the only case.

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Re: Reactions to King Buck Story

Postby engr76vt » Fri May 06, 2011 5:17 pm

I agree with several of the other posters.....why is one man allowed to act as God.....especially based upon the circumstances.
Cowboy up B&C and do the right thing. A buck this spectacular deserves it's rightful place in the record books.
Record keeping should be about the deer.....not the scorer or the hunter.

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Marc Anthony
 
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Re: Reactions to King Buck Story

Postby Marc Anthony » Fri May 06, 2011 6:05 pm

Steve, I can answer those questions for you. Before I do, I must say I'm appalled by the responses I've read on Facebook regarding this topic. Not one person knows Jack Reneau and he is receiving personal attacks (based on this article) one after another from people who know nothing about him or the B&C system! People are too quick to pound and don't have enough patients to investigate before taking someone's word they don't even know. He may be the biggest jerk in existence, but come on, at least wait until you hear the other side of a story before you tar and feather a person. I've got friends who are on both sides of the fence with this issue and I have heard numerous comments defending him and scrutinizing him. I think it deserves an investigation.

I'm equally disgusted by the comments slamming the B&C when most of these people don't have a clue how the scoring system works. It's so delicate, many of the certified scorers have problems with it. FYI, I've addressed that issue with B&C and they agree, more continuing education needs to be given in that area.

Why would the judgment of whether it's a typical point or not be up to one person? If it's a potential world record, shouldn't the panel decide that? You mention criteria for panel scoring, but can't any buck be panel scored? Have the thing panel scored, and erase all questions. If Reneau is so certain the right G3 comes off the base of the G2, and as you say there is plenty of agreement, then why not step aside and have someone else make the call?


First of all, there is a hierarchy in most social systems and the B&C is not alone. Go to any ER in a hospital, and you'll find there is one person who makes the call related to many of the most difficult decisions that a less experienced doctor can't or shouldn't make, and he/she is called the attending physician. In a cock pit, it's the captain. At my home, it's me :D When a buck of the King caliber has a borderline measurement/tine in question, it's up to the person in charge to override or make that decision. Jack is that person. He has absolutely NOTHING to gain by denying this head world record status. He saw the head and identified it as a non-typical tine. It should have ended right there! Unfortunately, it didn't. To answer your question of panel scoring: Do you know how many hundreds of heads from disgruntled hunters are requested to be panel scored each year? It's outrageous! Panel scoring is only left for the top ten heads and the King head was already identified by the person who ultimately has to make the call, as not being in that category. Just because the public is upset about King not making the world record buck, doesn't give anyone the right to tell someone else how to run their business. The King head is NOT a top ten by their professional judgement. People are trying to make this about Jack, but if they used a bit of common sense, they would know that nearly every person who sits in a panel has already seen the King head in detailed photos! They know what it is. Unfortunately it's the scorers, who BTW, by B&C own admission, are not scoring that tine properly.

Regarding who gets the credit, I disagree with you Steve. It's the owner of the head that will make the money and not the hunter. Mel Johnson is a perfect example! His 40 year old world record head has made a ton of money for the owner over the years. Mel got a lousy set of arrows for his head and never made a serious buck from his stardom. Wherever those heads travel is where people will pay the money to see it.

I am doing an investigation and am working directly with B&C. In fact, it will be me who gets the first word on their decision. One worthy note here; the B&C club is an elite club with elite guidelines. It's not the snob club like some would like to believe. They are very careful making sure these heads are the best of the best. If you have a B&C certified head, you not only have bragging rights (if that's important to you) but also monetary value. That's an important aspect for anyone who collects heads as an investment. Quite frankly, I was surprised at Duncan Dobie's comparison using the Buck Masters record book to the B&C book. I know no one person who gives a rat's tail about the Buck Masters book, especially collectors. It's the B&C book that has held the elite standard for nearly a century. Nobody dreams about shooting a Buck Masters book buck when they go to bed at night the day before opening day, it's the "Booner".

The B&C buck will always be the book of choice because the standards are held so high. I know first hand how difficult it is to have to swallow the deductions and eat the rejection when a rack doesn't make the cut. I've had to endure that three times and it's not fun! On the other hand, I appreciate the buck no matter what it scores, so I'm happy looking at a beautiful creature on my wall, whether or not it makes the book. I say again, if anyone doesn't like the set standards, don't criticize it, just don't try to join!

If a new set of antlers shows up and is in competition with the world record, it must be a hands-down, definitive winner, no ifs, ands, or buts! It's the same in boxing, MMA, etc. There absolutely can be no doubt whatsoever. The King head has doubt, the Milo Hanson head has no doubt!

I'll be the first to join the ranks of unhappy hunters if I find that corruption played a part of the decision making. All I'm saying is that there is two sides to every story, so lets wait until we're able to decipher ALL of the evidence before we start drinking all of the Kool-aide.
"A fool learns from his own mistake but a wiseman learns from a fool's mistake "

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Re: Reactions to King Buck Story

Postby Everyday Hunter » Fri May 06, 2011 7:54 pm

Marc Anthony wrote:If a new set of antlers shows up and is in competition with the world record, it must be a hands-down, definitive winner, no ifs, ands, or buts! It's the same in boxing, MMA, etc. There absolutely can be no doubt whatsoever. The King head has doubt, the Milo Hanson head has no doubt!

I was going to make that exact same comparison, but my post was already too long. In a world championship boxing match, any tie goes to the existing champion. Someone has to be clearly better than the champion, not merely just as good. When the Hansen buck beat the Jordan buck, there was no doubt at all.

On my point about the hunter benefiting -- I didn't say he'd make more than the person who owns the head. Yes, the owner does stand to make more. First, people will pay to see it. Second, he owns the rights to photography of the trophy. Third, his investment should appreciate if the collector market goes the right direction. The hunter gets none of that, but I am saying that the hunter will always be associated with the buck he killed (yes, that's an intangible), and the owner will change as the years go by. The owner will make more, but the hunter can still benefit in the ways I mentioned. I'd love to see the buck, and part of my entry fee at a sport show will go to the owner for displaying it there. But if the next show I go to has the hunter telling his story, part of my entry fee will go to him. Endorsements might be available to him, too. I don't think you can say the hunter can't make anything, or get any other benefits (besides personal satisfaction) from shooting the buck.

Incidentally, there are many organizations that do not function according to a hierarchy as you describe. The examples you cite have to do with life and death, and they're not organizations. Lots of organizations are very democratic in their decision making process. That's probably a factor in the way many people view this issue.

Steve
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Re: Reactions to King Buck Story

Postby charlie 01 » Sat May 07, 2011 11:26 am

He is lucky he didn't blow that side of the rack all to pieces when the bullet hit it. Last year I repaired an 8pt that the hunter shot the main beam tip off at the base of the G-3. He found nothing of the piece when he shot it.

It's too bad King didn't have Steve Ashley of the WBBC measure it first, at least for the state record, as long as he agreed with Ramsey's scoring.
Jack Reneau should not be judge and jury on this deers chance to be scored. It should be a panel of scorers decision. Seems as though, for some reason Reneau has something more than standards against scoreing this deer. What a sad and unfortunate out come.
I wonder why and what King got for selling it.
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Re: Reactions to King Buck Story

Postby muleyhunter » Sat May 07, 2011 10:13 pm

Boone and Crockett is not the only game in town. He should get the antlers scored by Safari Club International. Their scoring system is more fair to the animal than B & C's anyway.

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Re: Reactions to King Buck Story

Postby Ohio farms » Sun May 08, 2011 5:36 am

Heartbreaking for King. Although I believe rules are rules, it seems that some egos may have been involved.
I would have been really p.o.'ed if I had driven 1200 miles just to be blindsided.
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Re: Reactions to King Buck Story

Postby Steve Ashley » Sun May 08, 2011 2:01 pm

My name is Steve Ashley, and I am "quoted" in the beginning of this story. I just wanted to post and clear up what I supposedly said in the article.

"Steve Ashley, an official measurer of the prestigious Wisconsin Buck and Bear Club, contacted King and made arrangements to inspect the rack. According to King, after Ashley examined the massive rack, he apparently concurred with Ramsey’s score.
He insinuated that he thought I might have a new world record,” King said. “He asked me if I realized what I had. And then he told me not to let anybody see it.”

First of all, I was not contacted by the author of the story to verify my comments. This is poor reporting.

What is not said, is that John Ramsey called me to look at the rack immeadiatley after he green scored it. (Ramsey green scored it the same way he final measured it.) After looking at the rack, I was asked my opinion by John King. I did state to John King that I agreed with Ramsey, and that in my opinion that Ramsey had scored the rack correctly, and made the correct call and that the rack would most likely not be a new world record. At no time did I state or insinuate that the rack would score as a new world record.

I went on to tell John King that I was not the one to make those determinations and that Ramsey would be officially measuring it. I also suggested to John King that until the rack was officially measured that he might want to keep it in a safe place and keep a low profile. This is the same exact thing I advise all trophy owners to do.

The rack was eventually measured and entered into Boone & Crockett and Wisconsin Buck & Bear Club. Both organizations accepted the entry. Muck later, at John King's request, the trophy was removed from B&C, and Wisconsin Buck & Bear.

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