Reactions to King Buck Story

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Marc Anthony
 
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Re: Reactions to King Buck Story

Postby Marc Anthony » Sun May 08, 2011 2:42 pm

Thanks for clearing that up Steve! A classic example why we as hunters (or anyone for that matter) need to hear both sides before sending someone to the gas chamber.

Marc
"A fool learns from his own mistake but a wiseman learns from a fool's mistake "

mohican
 
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Re: Reactions to King Buck Story

Postby mohican » Mon May 09, 2011 11:26 am

The buzz on both sides of the issue seem to detract from the image hunting needs to project to the general public, and does nothing to show us as stewards of the land and wildlife.

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charlie 01
 
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Re: Reactions to King Buck Story

Postby charlie 01 » Mon May 09, 2011 3:29 pm

With hind sight some one always has the right answers. Should have done this or that, but the fact remains, the indifferences between all the antler scorers. With Ron Boucher and so many antler scorers calling the King buck a typical 6x6, and basically a few others calling it not, a typical 6x6, something should be done to resolve this indifference, I would think. Why can't the WBBC accept the scoreing of Ron Boucher, and if not, panel score it themselves instead of knuckling under the ruling of Jack Reneau, which according to Ron Boucher does not fit into this 6x6 typical B&C scoreing. Indifferences, I thought thats what judging and or scoring panels are for.
Something just seems so wrong here.
never say never
patience is the companion of wisdom

Jay
 
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Re: Reactions to King Buck Story

Postby Jay » Mon May 09, 2011 8:58 pm

It is very wrong how this great deer has been handled. Ron Busher put his 27 year scoring career on the line for this deer. I never looked for Ron to score the deer , but met him at the Iowa deer classic where he asked to see the antlers. After looking at them for some time I asked him what he thought. He said that is hands down a typical. He said I can't score the antlers but someone needed to do somthing. Ron was in quite a dilema, his good friend Milo has the WR, whom Ron traveled with doing shows for years. At that point he looked me in the and whats right is right and somthing would be done. These antlers have been viewed by more b&C guys than you can imagine and it is over whelming the number that say it is typical. 2 shows in Canada my friend took the replica to show the people and scorers up north and again about 99% said it was typical.. I didn't just dream this up and run with this on a hope and a prayer. I have been putting this together for three years. I have so much to say but this is not the time, but is all coming out. Not trying to be a jerk, but I have to hold back for now. This isn't a nock on the B&C system at all, but remember people will come and go and the club will still be there, but you don't have a record book without the animal. Thanks D&DH for your article and honesty on this, and thanks all for your time, Jay Fish

GrandView
 
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Re: Reactions to King Buck Story

Postby GrandView » Mon May 09, 2011 10:59 pm

There are some troubling inconsistencies in this story.

The D&DH article by Duncan Dobie states that John Ramsey green scored the rack at 220+ Gross and 215+ Net. Ramsey ostensibly tells King, depending on the broken beam assessment, he may have a World Record. Steve Ashley of WBBC apparently agrees with the assessment.

However, Steve Ashley himself states that Ramsey green scored the rack the same as he final measured it.........which final score was 180 Net.

"What is not said, is that John Ramsey called me to look at the rack immeadiatley after he green scored it. (Ramsey green scored it the same way he final measured it.) After looking at the rack, I was asked my opinion by John King. I did state to John King that I agreed with Ramsey, and that in my opinion that Ramsey had scored the rack correctly, and made the correct call and that the rack would most likely not be a new world record."

The green score is prior to Jack Reneau ever seeing the rack. So how is Reneau the initiator of the decision if the right G3 was already considered abnormal and King was informed that his rack would not likely be a new World Record? The article directly states that Reneau orchestrated the abnormal point decision and directed Ramsey to score the rack that way. This is directly refuted by Ashley........one of the principals cited in the article.

Steve Ashley was not interviewed for the article. Was John Ramsey?

The D&DH article further states:
According to Laidlaw, proper protocol for scoring a deer of this magnitude was not followed, and that’s where things went astray. After it was officially scored by Ramsey as a typical 6-by-6, the next step should have been for the buck to be panel-scored by WBBC members.

When was the rack ever officially scored as a typical 6X6 by Ramsey? Why was it ever assumed it would be?

The article also states:
As a result, the King Buck has not been entered in B&C and probably never will be. Nor has it been recognized in any way by Wisconsin.

Yet Steve Ashley states:
"The rack was eventually measured and entered into Boone & Crockett and Wisconsin Buck & Bear Club. Both organizations accepted the entry. Much later, at John King's request, the trophy was removed from B&C, and Wisconsin Buck & Bear."

I recognize there's a big move underway to use the court of public opinion to attempt to sway B&C. But this is starting to sound a bit tawdry. Particularly the swipes at Reneau.

Jay
 
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Re: Reactions to King Buck Story

Postby Jay » Tue May 10, 2011 5:56 am

grand View, do think Johnny King would have driven all the way to PA to have a 180" deer looked at? This is eactly why we are in this possion, inconcistancy in the storys from the scorers. I talked to Jack R on the phone and he said he made the decission on his own. Like I sad when it got hot he added more names to his list. Also I have been hearing of this mini panel out in PA, if there where ware is the score sheet from that panel? Steve was not interviewed because of obvious reasons. This deer should have never left WI without an official score sheet, Mr. King should have never been told to hide it away from other scorers so one scorer and records keeper could hook his name ot it for some big unvailing at a later date. This whole thig stinks and stinks bad.

Jay
 
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Re: Reactions to King Buck Story

Postby Jay » Tue May 10, 2011 6:08 am

GV, I also talked with Mr. Ramsey. He is kinda all over the board on this. I do not mean that in a bad way. From what I got out of him he believes he scored it correct the first time at the 2teens net typical. One statement he made was "I got my marching orders from Montana." Another statement was that" in the back of his mind he feals that he scored the WR buck."

Also don't compare this deer to the Zaft and other deer that people say they didn't accept those deer why should they accept the King? My answer is every deer has its own finger print and are different, let the King stane on its own.

Another statement I have been hearing is that to win you have to Knock Out the champ. My answer to that is the challenger is ready and is just starting to walk in the ring and the ref says as the challenger gets to ring appron, you can't beat this guy, you don't look good enough and then calls the fight right on the spot and hands the title back to the champ. All we are asking is just let us get in the ring and give the deer a shot!

bmstaaf
 
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Re: Reactions to King Buck Story

Postby bmstaaf » Tue May 10, 2011 6:40 am

Not much of a b&c kind of guy, but I will say this that's is an awesome buck! It's sad that everything comes down to a score now a days....I understand clearly why there is a stink about all this, but I would love to have something of that caliber hanging on my wall.

GrandView
 
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Re: Reactions to King Buck Story

Postby GrandView » Tue May 10, 2011 9:55 am

Jay wrote:grand View, do think Johnny King would have driven all the way to PA to have a 180" deer looked at?


John King went to PA to verify that the rack could even be measured for B&C. Which is consistent with B&C rules on damaged and unrepaired trophies.

From B&C website....

Trophies that have been damaged and not repaired may be brought to the attention of the Records Committee by Measurers for consideration for inclusion in the Club's Awards Programs and records books. If the Committee, or its appointed representatives, such as B&C records department staff or a Judges Panel, agrees that the broken parts belong to the trophy and can be repositioned in their original configuration to enable an accurate measurement, the damaged trophy material can be included in the measurements and subsequently repaired. Submission of trophies with verifiable and damaged parts for examination by the Records Committee or a Judges Panel shall be at the expense of the owner.

Also I have been hearing of this mini panel out in PA, if there where ware is the score sheet from that panel?


Where did you hear that it was scored in PA? What I've read was the rack would have to have been scored by the measurer contacted first .........which was Ramsey.

Steve was not interviewed because of obvious reasons.


And those reasons are/were?

This deer should have never left WI without an official score sheet, Mr. King should have never been told to hide it away from other scorers so one scorer and records keeper could hook his name ot it for some big unvailing at a later date. This whole thig stinks and stinks bad.


It would be difficult to generate an official score sheet without an official decision on whether the damaged rack could even be scored........wouldn't it?

There are rules to be followed with B&C. The "shopping" of trophies is one of them. As much as you deny it, what you are suggesting now, and what you are disdainfully labeling "single scorer" is all encompassed in "shopping a trophy".

GrandView
 
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Re: Reactions to King Buck Story

Postby GrandView » Tue May 10, 2011 10:23 am

Jay wrote: Also don't compare this deer to the Zaft and other deer that people say they didn't accept those deer why should they accept the King? My answer is every deer has its own finger print and are different, let the King stane on its own.


My contention would be that the situation and public furor is precisely the same as the Zaft buck.

Two magnificent trophies that are sooooo close to being new records in their respective categories of P&Y and B&C. Added to which.....as a result of the abnormal/normal rules, and the symmetry rules, they both receive draconian deductions that lower their respective scores so much their standing in the lists of trophies doesn't indicate how good their racks are. Particularly compared to racks sharing their same scores.

No one in their right mind could envision the Zaft buck being a typical 170's trophy............nor the King buck being a 180's trophy just by looking at them. If you placed them side by side with racks of equivalent scores.....the differences in size would be obvious.

However, that doesn't automatically mean the racks were measured / interpreted wrongly. Nor that procedures weren't followed as defined by rules. Nor that a massive conspiracy exits.

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