Australian Prime Minister says it best.

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JPH
 
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Re: Australian Prime Minister says it best.

Postby JPH » Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:39 am

None of what you guys are saying is new or surprising to me. While the details have changed slightly, the sentiment and the rhetoric are unchanged since the very early days of this nation.

A human being cannot be "illegal". To call anyone that implies that their very existence is somehow wrong. Only an action can be "illegal", but committing an act that one society considers to be illegal does not make one a criminal. Was Harriet Tubman a criminal for assisting slaves to freedom? Was Paul Revere a criminal for refusing to pay British Taxes? Would you be a criminal if you broke the speed limit in order to get a bleeding child to the hospital? The answer is no. Words may have meaning but they do not trump human rights.

Do I have a right to defend the boundaries of my hunting property from poachers? Sure I do, but if my property had the only source of clean water and my neighbors were dying of thirst, I have an obligation to open the gate and let them in. The border patrol is wasting time and money protecting us from potential landscaping crews and cleaning ladies. They are not a threat to us, they are only doing what I pray I would have the courage to do in their situation.

Any why is English so sacred? Because we speak it? Because the slave-owning aristocracy of 1776 spoke it? If you really think that we should speak the native language, then start working on your Iroquois or Lakota.

Once again, sorry to crash your Tea Party rally, but I am willing to stand on the side of basic human rights over so-called American sovereignty.

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Woods Walker
 
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Re: Australian Prime Minister says it best.

Postby Woods Walker » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:35 am

Not having english as the official language of the United States GOVERNMENT (private companies and individuals are free to do as they wish) will only lead to chaos and the Balkanization of America. Really J'per, you think it's THAT unreasonable to expect people who want all the advantages of living in America and the largess of the taxpayer funded American government to not even learn our language??? What makes them more special than our ancestors? Numbers? Proximity?

So we only should follow laws when it's convienent for us? GREAT! I'm in danger of losing my home because I cannot keep up with the mortagage payments, so then I can do whatever I must to make sure that I'm not homeless. Let's see then...I need several thousand dollars, so I'll just steal your car! I cannot get a driver's license, but I do need to work and to be able to get to the store, so I'll just drive without one, or better yet get a fake one. I can't afford gas either (and that's not a hypothetical either!), so I'll just syphon some from your tank.

Hey! I'm beginning to like this idea! What's your address? ;)
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Woods Walker
 
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Re: Australian Prime Minister says it best.

Postby Woods Walker » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:44 am

And I have another take on this, from a far more serious side.

What if these people were Muslims, and not only do they practice their faith firmly (which is fine) but because of the tenents of their faith, they are starting to make laws which incorporate parts of their faith that run counter to ours. Like what women can and cannot do, as opposed to men. Is that alright too? And this is not hypothetical either as it's already happening in Europe.
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JPH
 
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Re: Australian Prime Minister says it best.

Postby JPH » Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:27 am

Laws passed via constitutional means? That's the way this works.

I know I am in favor of laws that reflect my religious beliefs. I'd like to see an end to abortion and I'd like to stop Obamacare because of the demands that all healthcare providers pay for birth control. Secular people certainly advance their values within the law. Why should Muslums be denied the same consideration?

And back to the previous point. What are the immigrants stealing? Our air? Our sense of superiority? They aren't stealing from me.

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Woods Walker
 
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Re: Australian Prime Minister says it best.

Postby Woods Walker » Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:30 am

JPH wrote:Laws passed via constitutional means? That's the way this works.

I know I am in favor of laws that reflect my religious beliefs. I'd like to see an end to abortion and I'd like to stop Obamacare because of the demands that all healthcare providers pay for birth control. Secular people certainly advance their values within the law. Why should Muslums be denied the same consideration?

And back to the previous point. What are the immigrants stealing? Our air? Our sense of superiority? They aren't stealing from me.


Well first off, let's establish one CLEAR point......I'm NOT talking about immigrants. We all came from immigrants. The point here is those who chose to come here ILLEGALLY . An "illegal" immigrant. I know you don't like that term, but if you break the law to come here then that's what you are regardless of motive. That's like lumping all hunters as poachers (illegal hunters). The fact that someone is not from here is of no matter. It's when they break the law that is the issue. The poaching issue that we beat to death here a while ago is VERY similar to the connection you are making.

One of the things that we stand for here is religious freedom in terms of what the government can and cannot restrict. What somone chooses to do voluntarily is between them and God. I, like you, believe wholeheartedly that abortion is flat out WRONG, and that I certainly DO NOT want any part of my tax money going to pay for it. Yes, that is a religious tenent. We can't get away from that, as basic CHRISTIAN principles are what this country was founded on. There will, and HAS TO be some sort of moral yardstick that we govern ourselves by. And in the USA, it is based on the Bible and NOT the Koran. I for one do not want to live in a place where the laws of the land are based on the Koran. I can move to some country stuck in the middle ages to do that.

So if you think that a human being cannot be "illegal", then what do we do? Eliminate the border entirely? Everyone comes and goes as the see fit? Why have any country at all then?
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Jslotter
 
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Re: Australian Prime Minister says it best.

Postby Jslotter » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:16 am

My problem with modern day immigration is that now Im asked to respect their way of life and not to offend them, and I should be aware of their culture by catering to their special needs. Go to their country, and be lucky to survive for being American, someone will surely be at your doorstep wanting to cut your head off on Al Jazeera. To hell with that. JPH, if you think all that is coming across the border is people desperate for work, you are wrong. Yes, some of them are, but lately, it has been drug smugglers having gun fights with border patrol on a frequent bases. Not too mention the infiltration of radical Islam thru the Mexican border, from south America. Its happening. Sorry for being concerned about my country JPH, your human rights concerns is exactly what they hope to achieve.
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Deebz
 
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Re: Australian Prime Minister says it best.

Postby Deebz » Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:50 am

"Was Harriet Tubman a criminal for assisting slaves to freedom? Was Paul Revere a criminal for refusing to pay British Taxes? Would you be a criminal if you broke the speed limit in order to get a bleeding child to the hospital? The answer is no. Words may have meaning but they do not trump human rights."

Actually, the answer is yes. If you break the law you are a criminal. The reason you broke the law may be the rationalization you need to break it, but that doesn't make it LEGAL. That's my issue. I personally have very few dealings with people who are residing in this country illegally. They don't steal things directly from me either, but the fact that they are here in our country without following the same rules and contributing the same tax money as every CITIZEN of the country does makes it harder for us to live in our own country. It may be an accident of birth that I'm a US citizen and someone else is from Cuba or Mexico, but that's not my fault and I shouldn't have to make up for the other guy.

If the people coming here are coming to escape a bad situation, that's fine. But they need to do it by following the steps and procedures put in place to do so. I have to follow all kinds of procedures and rules to live my life on a daily basis. Just because some of them are hard or I may not have the money for them doesn't exempt me from being required to follow them.
"When a hunter is in a tree stand with high moral values and with the proper hunting ethics and richer for the experience, that hunter is 20 feet closer to God." ~Fred Bear

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JPH
 
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Re: Australian Prime Minister says it best.

Postby JPH » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:19 pm

There was a legal way to get out of slavery too. You could buy yourself if you could somehow get someone to give you the money or scrounge it up yourself. By the standard that you guys are setting up, those who eascaped and those who helped them were criminals. Well count me among those who would proudly accept that label too!

And please share with me concrete examples of radical islamists filtering in over the Mexican border. If that is how they are coming in, they are the dumbest enemy we have ever faced. Why would they risk death in the desert and cross one of the most heavily fortified borders in the world when the Canadian border is wide open? They have the money and the education to enter this country without those kinds of risks. The 9/11 hijackers were "legal". Most drug runners are "legal". They have the means to bypass the border security.

If you guys are so worried about our borders, where is the outcry about the northern border? Did you know some estimates have more Canadian "illegal" immigrants in the US than from Mexico? I'm tired of them setting up curling clubs and smuggling in their maple syrup right under our noses! Pretty soon we'll have to say zed at the end of the alphabet!!!

Would I favor open borders? Well, it seemd to work pretty well for the first 200 years of our history and I know of some drunken Irishmen who made good back in the mid-19th century So yeah, I wouldn't mind going back to that.

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Woods Walker
 
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Re: Australian Prime Minister says it best.

Postby Woods Walker » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:30 pm

J'per...you need to spend some time here in the Chicago area! Iowa is like living on another planet compared to what we have here. If you did maybe you still wouldn't change your mind much, but you'd sure see where I'm coming from!
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JPH
 
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Re: Australian Prime Minister says it best.

Postby JPH » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:01 pm

Woods Walker wrote:J'per...you need to spend some time here in the Chicago area! Iowa is like living on another planet compared to what we have here. If you did maybe you still wouldn't change your mind much, but you'd sure see where I'm coming from!


I could say that you should spend some time in Juarez, Mexico or Guatemala City and see the human suffering across the border. But I don't know what your experience is. Maybe you have been there too. I won't assume anything, but neither should you.

I lived in Illinois for two years. I visit Chicago several times a year. I've been to largely hispanic US cities many times. I have dear friends in El Paso, TX and a sister in Uvalde, TX. Another sister lives in Tampa. And while it is not Chicago, I work in the lagest, most diverse city in Iowa and I have seen what goes on among the urban poor for 19 years.

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