performance

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Woods Walker
 
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RE: performance

Postby Woods Walker » Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:57 am

another area you can experiment with to help offset a lower draw weight is the weight of your arrow. This will help increase the speed of your shot which would likely improve your effective range.


I have to disagree here. Arrow speed has never killed anything. MASS and penetration do. Especially at 40#. I'd shoot the heaviest arrow I could shoot accurately. It'll also be QUIETER, which if you are shooting at shorter ranges is FAR more important than speed.
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scottflesher
 
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RE: performance

Postby scottflesher » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:14 pm

I see your point WW and I too went to a heavier arrow this year, but with a 40# draw, a heavy arrow (compared to a lighter arrow) will likely slow down the speed of the arrow thus taking longer to get to the target, increasing the chance for the animal to duck the arrow. Also with the slower arrow speed, his range may be limited due to bow noise.
I agree mass gets more penetration, but if you're lobbing hail marys with your arrows, the game will have additional time to react.
Mass doesn't mean much if you don't hit the target, and neither does speed, however the angle I was coming from was trying to help steven increase his effective range and mitigate string ducking due to the lower draw weight.
I agree with your comments on the noise perspective too, but I doubt 40lbs is going to torque an arrow to the point of making alot of noise, especially if he takes other proactive mesasures such as limbsavers and string silencers

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Woods Walker
 
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RE: performance

Postby Woods Walker » Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:21 pm

Scott: The difference in arrow speed between a 40# and a 60# bow is so insignificant that it's not worth talking about.

And as far as a lighter arrow's miniscule speed increase lessening a deer's ability to "jump string", I can only say that until they start making bows that shoot in excess of 1240 FPS (the speed of sound), then it's a non-issue. If they can hear it first, then they CAN duck it. I had a deer once duck an arrow that I shot from a compound bow from a tree at 12 yards! He heard something, and ducked by a good 8" to 12".

The only real advantage I can see to a faster arrow is less trajectory, but that is only if it also shoots as quiet as the slower one. Speed is the LAST thing on my list. But I also don't shoot at deer at distances beyond 25 yards either.
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scottflesher
 
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RE: performance

Postby scottflesher » Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:09 pm

I see your point Woodsie. I agree that mass is paramount, above speed. I'm not going to display my ignorance by commenting on the significance of draw weights. I would have assumed that a 33% reduction in draw weight would have a significant impact on the FPS of the projectile.
The issue of speed and weight is a delicate balance. I agree that mass kills deer not speed, however if the mass doesn't hit the target due to the speed of the projectile, then ....... Likewise, if the lighter arrow causes more noise and the animal can dodge the projectile, your in the same boat as above, a miss or worse yet a wounded animal.

What i'm not sold on is that every "light" arrow makes more noise. I agree that more mass can dampen the vibrations, however this isn't true 100% of the time. (Unless you can give me a guarantee like sentloc [:D] ).

Mass is important but I'll throw this out. If you get a complete pass through on a deer, does it matter the weight of your arrow? Mass will help improve penetration in the event you hit the shoulder blade (in most cases) compared to a lighter arrow, but just like speed (or the shockwaves created by speed) doesn't kill deer, neither does mass. I highly doubt that if an arrow had a blunt edge and couldn't penetrate a deer's hide, that the deer would sustain enough blunt trauma from the arrow impact itself (again assuming it bounced off the deer) to be fatal.
So their is a balance between speed and mass. Either extreme isn't going to procude the most desirable results for all the variables involved in archery hunting.

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Woods Walker
 
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RE: performance

Postby Woods Walker » Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:28 pm

It's true that it's not mass itself that kills the deer. However, the very nature of how an arrow kills....traumatic shock caused by massive blood loss(NOT energy transfer shock like a bullet)....by going through as much tissue as possible, cutting arteries and veins in the process, is enhanced by the amount of ACCURRATE mass that is propelling the arrow. The mass is the momentum that carries the arrow/broadhead through the most important part of it's work.

Now, I DO agree that if you are getting pass throughs with whatever you are shooting then it's more of a moot point. But then the quiet factor comes in. And no, mass in and of itself won't quiet evey bow/arrow combination. You still have to tune the equipment, but with the tackle I use, 9 times out of 10 the heavier arrow choice (within reason) is the quieter one.

Now how many angels can you fit on the head of YOUR pin? [:D] [;)]
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scottflesher
 
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RE: performance

Postby scottflesher » Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:49 pm

I once heard an old archer say that he'd rather have his broadhead stay in a deers body cavity. He said as the deer ran, there would be more damage due to the broadheads movement. I still prefer a complete pass through, but it's hard to argue his logic.

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RE: performance

Postby Lot to Learn » Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:19 pm

respectfully disagree with hoping broadhead stays in deer.  My old set up I could not get pass through, shot a deer at less than 10yds from the ground, dead center heart, no pass.  That deer ran about 100 yds before falling.  I shot a deer through the heart at 30 yds with pass through last year and made it about 30yds.  I know different deer, but point is, with the arrow still in it is clotting the bleeding.  Pass through allows quicker bleed out. Those are both heart shots.  A few years ago with the old set up, I hit somewhere in the vitals at 25yds, no pass, tracked deer for hours and through many cut corn fields, never found her. I can still see her running down the draw with the arrow sticking out. 

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RE: performance

Postby Lot to Learn » Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:21 pm

I meant to add, if it is a bad shot, I guess I can see the broad head grinding internally as the deer ran, but not sure that is a good thing either. 

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Woods Walker
 
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RE: performance

Postby Woods Walker » Mon Jul 12, 2010 3:43 pm

I want pass throughs. First off, if there's an exit hole, then there's more likely a better blood trail. Secondly, the more of the deer's body the arrow passes, the more surface area/arteries/veins will be cut, and that's the bottom line.

In the case of a lung shot, if you go through both lungs, then the odds of the lungs collapsing(and the deer with it), are also much greater.

Two holes, lotsa blood!

Then there's another factor. If your arrow is sharp...REAL sharp...and you make a clean pass through in a non-vital area, then there's a better chance for that deer to survive the wound as opposed to if the arrow is stuck in there and "chopping things up". That's not to say that a deer can't survive with a broadhead lodged in it's body....I've help clean/ butcher at least 3 that have had encysted broadheads in them. But a clean pass through is preferable.
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Waste Nothing,

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scottflesher
 
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RE: performance

Postby scottflesher » Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:32 am

I agree too, I would prefer a pass through, however I'm just sharing a different perspective. There is no guarantee that a pass through does more damage.
Here's a situation to consider.
You hit a deer above the vitals but below the spine. Complete pass through in the tenderloin area. Depending on the health of the deer, and other factors like the weather, not likely a fatal shot. However if the broadhead lodges in and moves as the deer runs, there is the possiblity that the broadhead could hit a vein or artery that proves fatal, and fatal to the point that the deer is found. I agree that more holes (entrance and exit) makes it easier to track the deer, but a chest cavity filling up with blood is also devistating. Harder to track, yes, but less devistating than a pass through, not necessarily.

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