let's get real, build the herd!

[vermont backstrap]

Northern VT, I totally agree. When I first started this post, I by no way intended to sound like a 'horn hunter'. I agree that every deer is a trophy is my eyes. My thoughts to increasing the demands on the 3 point rule, was to use this as an avenue to improve the ratio. Yes, that means less bucks killed but overall a gradual increase of b:d ratios. I understand the states inability to drop any finances into the deer habitat programs like they use to, but without some form of state assistance to farmers or land owners, the habitat will never change. I am doing all I can on my own litte "postage stamp' size of property and consider myself fortunate to be able to do so. I still would rather see the herd improve with more bucks running the ridges (increasing the antler restriction) and keep the doe populations up! Yes overall that means a signficant reduction to overall state kill reports, but we have to start somewhere. Beside the 50 pounds of veni I carved off the deer I took in archery is not likely going to get my family through the year without buying angus! I say that becuase we need to put things into perspective and understand that we all have to sacrifice even more in the future if things are really going to change for the better. Not sure about you, but I already am psyched for the 2010 season!!! Only 41 weeks to go!!!!!!!!!!

[eemer]

northern VT - I'm not saying to NOT Kill does to throw the herd out of balance as much as let it get back to a level that is sustainable. I am sure there are parts of this state that the deer are plentiful, but that ain't here where I hunt. I am not worried about seing "Booner's" everywhere - I just would like to see a deer or 2 each day I hunt - not each season. We need to give landowners some sort of incentive to correctly manage their properties and stop cowtowwing to the Greenies that don't want a tree touched. I am sure that the number of does tags available for our area along with old growth forest are why I am not seing the deer numbers that I even saw 2 years ago. I am just discouraged that I end up paying as much for a resident hunting license here as I do for my non-resident license in PA and not see any deer here at all. I saw more deer driving the 1 mile of backroads into my farm in SW PA camp than I saw here in the past 3 years. Basically what I am trying to say is I would like to see them eliminate the doe season for 2 years in my area. I have friends from Brownsville who said that this is the first year they didn't see deer in teh woods in 20 years. Something's got to give or we'll lose our younger hunters and the anti's will win.

[metrx]

I live in NY but hunted in VT for years.  I'm 41, my dad is 66.  My dad had friends who skied at Killington every year.  They were hunters too.  They used to take family trips up there in the summers and while driving around site-seeing would see tons of deer in the fields at all hours of the day.  They hunted up there every year as a ritual for bow and gun in the areas where they had all these sightings in summer, Barnard mostly.  Now, I'm talking 60's to early 70s.  I remember being a kid and my dad and his friends talking about how they say they saw 20, 30, 40, 50 deer in a single field in summer and how every year they got shots at 8s and 10s in both bow and gun season.  I'm not sure what happened...I know they had a few doe seasons. I remember the locals talking about that killed off the heard. In my opinion, it has never recovered. 
I started hunting up their with these guys when I was 16...1984.  I saw deer, but nowhere near like the stories they told.  It seemed to decline year after year.  We stayed at a lodge in Pittsfield.  We had guys from all over...Mass., NJ, Maine...one by one, including my dad's friends, they slowly stopped coming.  I havent gone up there in 6 years.  Lack of getting, and more importantly, seeing deer.  Alot of the land was starting to become posted and permission not being granted for access...that contributed as well. 
I really enjoyed the comraderie, stories, I loved stopping in at the deer check stations just to BS whether I got a deer or not.  Needless to say, I bought my own land in NYS just north of the Catskils and hunt there.  Nothing like having your own land to hunt on and permission from neighbors, especially in your home state.  My dad always talks about wanting to make one last trip up there, I guess he knows his hunting years are winding down.  Maybe, who knows.
Anyway, it seemed to be a great place to hunt back in the day.  I'm sure the state lost a lot of revenue on licenses, hotels, food, booze, etc from lack of out of state participation.  As an out of state hunter and non-tax payer of VT, I feel like a guest and really shouldnt have a say in how they manage their deer herd.  Something needs to be done.    

[ZEEK]

Oh the good old days. My dad tells me stories of the 50's and 60's you didn't go out and not see a deer, might not see a buck but you saw deer.
Enter 1979. Doe were shot whole sale, but deer were starving in the winter as well and thinning needed to be done. The herd was reduced but the changing habitat and rough winters have kept numbers down, true the herd has never recovered.
The farms are going fast, logging has slowed, and there just isn't enough good winter habitat to have the herd of the 60's.
Need to go to Iowa or Il. to see the deer of the 60's .

[northernVT]

Hey eemer. I agree with you about seeing fewer deer, but if you knock off shooting the doe, then what are you going to shoot? I am guessing bucks. The state has made it very clear that they want hunters to be able to shoot three deer per seaso. If we go back to shooting three bucks a year, then there goes our deer herd again. There has to be a balance in there. I think that we should only be able to shoot one deer a year for several years to let the heard grow back. I agree with you about letting the herd grow back, but ZEEK has hot the nail on the head. The habbitat jus isn't there to sustain the herd of the 60's and 70's. You mention about incentives for landowners. Those incentives are already in place with numerous Federal programs like "WHIP" and state programs like the forestry programs. Both are free to the landowner by the way. The problem is that very few people use them due to either, not knowing about them, too shy to call, or not wanting the government on there property telling them what to do and how to manage their land. The landscape just isn't the same as it was in the 60's and 70's. There is actually more woods now than there was then, but it just isn't being managed to support the herd. I have the same sentiment as you as to what I want, but we just need to find an amicable way with the state to do it. Unfortunately, the state has financial issues clouding up their wildlife management issues. They are trying to keep a balance as well. Our fish and wildlife commisioner is a politician first and a wildlife biologist second. Keep plugging away though.

ZEEK. I couldn't agree with you more.

[simon]

Habitat.
 
start the discussion there.
 
Vermont F&W wants less deer, less deer means less deer to see, less deer to be hunted.
 
Is that what hunters want? Less deer, go back to 2 deer or 1 deer a year?
 
The trophy hunters are fine with that, most give the meat away anyway.
 
If you will not manage the habitat and simply let the land do its own thing then we will have less deer. WMU 'N' was population recorded at 3.9 deer per square mile, not bucks, total deer. VT F&W said they want half that many deer, in order to less accidents, complaints etc they want the deer herd to be around 1.5 deer per square mile. 2 deer every 1300 acres is maximum in their minds.
 
I live and hunt in zone P and we never have antlerless tags, but I see 146 doe shot in summer down in Bennington at one apple orchard and thrown in a ditch to rot and think, if the idiots managed the land all across the state those deer wouldn't be bunching up on that orchard and we'd all have meat in the freezer.
 
Eventually the deer herd will be lowered to the point where it will be lottery draw to get a tag.
 
from Vermont F&W
"
[left]Status of the Population [/left][font="times new roman,times new roman"][left]The hunting season of 2009 saw a decrease in deer harvested (see 2009 Harvest Report). The decreased harvest was somewhat predictable to go with overall population decline (Fig. 2). The population decline should be viewed as beneficial for Vermont’s deer and their habitats. "[/left][/font]

[vermont backstrap]

Boy would PETA love to hear the story about the orchard, maybe we could actually use their crazy ability to react to things like this to our (hunters) advantage??!! Perhaps you should go public with that....just a thought.........