Crossbow Restrictions

[Legnip]

Should Wisconsin remove all restrictions for Crossbow used during Archery Season?

"NO" votes, please voice your opinion. Why are you against them?

[retch sweeny]

[font=arial]Why would any bowhunter in WI be opposed to crossbows in the archery deer season? I can think of a few reasons. Actually, 400,000 reasons. That is the number of gun hunters in WI that do not bow hunt. There are 650,000 gun hunters and 250,000 bowhunters. Last year, bowhunters nearly lost the antlerless tag statewide. This was because of the low deer numbers and the fact that many units prohibited gun hunters from killing any antlerless deer. Gun hunters are not happy with bowhunters and the numbers of deer we kill (especially the bucks) Last year, there was a push to move the gun deer season into the rut and extend the season to 16 days. Gun hunters what more opportunity at the bucks and the rut and are not happy with bowhunters and all of this is taking place with the current list of legal weapons. Adding a 100,000 crossbow shooters to the archery deer season will exacerbate this and increase the tensions. Talk of reducing tags and shortening the bow season are already happening without crossbows being added to the general population.[/font]
 
[font=arial]This year, there are 19 units in which gun and bowhunters are prohibited from killing antlerless deer. Deer hunters are not looking for more ways to kill deer. The current list of weapons has proven more than capable of doing that. Its about the resource and the the seasons as well as the fact that nobody is excluded from the archery deer season in WI. Everybody that wishes to be a bowhunter inWI can do just that. Also, your question assumes a snapshot in time but ignores the consequences of the future. This should help explain what I mean. Here is a review of the Tac-15 crossbow If this is the crossbow of today, what will the crossbow of tomorrow be able to do? Some interesting quotes from the article.[/font]
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[/align][font=arial]http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/pse-tac-15-15i-10-10i-crossbow-review-1.php[/font]



[/align][font=arial]Above is a link to a new performance review of the TAC 15 crossbow.[/font]
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[/align][font=arial]"I became a PSE TAC 15/15i/10/10i crossbow dealer because my own PSE TAC 15i crossbow shot 6 arrows into 1.875 inches at 100 yards, on my third day of shooting it." [/font]


[/align][font=arial][font=arial][size=2]"It took me a couple of days of shooting tiny groups with my TAC 15i crossbow to confirm that they were not just a fluke."[/font][/size][/font]


[/align][font=arial][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2]"[font="times new roman"][size=100]It took a few shots at 10 feet to get a shot to register (chronograph). When it did, it said: "406 FPS". Pretty impressive and just what PSE said to expect."[/font][/size][/font][/size][/font][/size][/font]


[/align][font=arial][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2]"I guess I am now confident in my PSE TAC 15i crossbow's ability to shoot through the chrono at 100 yards!"[/font][/size][/font][/size][/font]


[/align][font=arial][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2]" I believe this crossbow is a legitimate 100 yard tool in the hands of a responsible, practiced, serious hunter. "[/font][/size][/font][/size][/font]


[/align][font=arial][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2]"I learned the hard way that at less than 70 yards I need to shoot multiple arrows at individual dots unless I want to keep the PSE arrow makers on overtime making me replacements."[/font][/size][/font][/size][/font]


[/align][font=arial][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2]"This crossbow will do for the archer what a flat shooting cartridge in a precision rifle does for the long range rifle hunter. It is going to set a new archery hunting accuracy standard for years."[/font][/size][/font][/size][/font] 


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[/align][font=arial][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2]If this is what the crossbow of 2010 is capable of doing, think about what the crossbow of 2020 will be able to do so allowing crossbows into the archery season today might seem like no big deal to you unless you think this through to the logical evolution. At the same time, the vertical bow reached its peak power thousands of years ago because since the beginning of time, a vertical archer could only draw a bow based on his own physical ability. If he is only able to draw 60 Lbs. then that peak weight limit is as powerful as he will ever be able to draw. The average hunting bow draw weight (as recorded at the WBH broadhead shoot) is between 55 and 60 Lbs. Regardless of let-off and advanced materials, if 60 Lbs. draw is all you can muster, then your bow met it's limit many centuries ago and can go no farther because in order to enjoy an 80% let off, you must still overcome the bows peak draw weight. [/font][/size][/font][/size][/font][/size][/font]


[/align][font=arial][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2]This has always had the effect to limit the lethality and effectiveness of a bow and arrow. The next limiter is steady aim. With vertical archery, this limit was established the day the first bow was drawn. Because a crossbow can be shot from a rest or rail and because of it's superior ballistics (speed, K.E.), those limits are not dependant on the archers ability or strength, making the limits of their power, speed and effectiveness nearly unlimited. The crossbow is still in it's infancy in terms of range and effectiveness and will only become more lethal to even the most casual user. Because of competition and desire for market share, crossbow makers (like all industries) will continue to improve and push the limits. In a decade, this crossbows will most likely be on the low end of performance and considered a dinosaur compared to the 2020 line of crossbows. At the same time. I will still only be able to draw and hold steady a bow that my physical strength allows me to draw.[/font][/size][/font][/size][/font][/size][/font] 


[/align][font=arial][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2]If firearms hunters are unhappy with the harvest numbers of Bowhunters today and our deer population is in dire straits, then allowing this sort of device into the WI archery deer season (or its future and more powerful version) means that the archer deer season would be severely, negatively impacted.[/font][/size][/font][/size][/font] 


[/align][font=arial][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2]Videos.[/font][/size][/font][/size][/font][/size][/font] 


[/align][font=arial][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2]PSE TAC 15 ad.[/font][/size][/font][/size][/font][/size][/font] 


[/align][font=arial][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5nVSfv0Rlg&feature=fvw[/font][/size][/font][/size][/font] 



[/align][font=arial]Interview talking about 1 inch groups at 100 yards[/font] 



[/align][font=arial]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FdWkBJ4sdU&feature=related[/font] 



[/align][font=arial][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2]50 yards shooting a Rolaids tablet.[/font][/size][/font][/size][/font][/size][/font] 



[/align][font=arial][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNmkP2yniqc&feature=related[/font][/size][/font][/size][/font][/size][/font] 



[/align][font=arial][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2]Also, a valid reason to be opposed to changing the current laws is that there is not majority support for such a change. The DNR has asked the question in the last 2 statewide bowhunters survey and in both cases, the majority opposed allowing crossbows for everybody. This idea has also failed via the conservation congress spring hearings because of the lack of support for such a plan. [/font][/size][/font][/size][/font][/size][/font]
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[font=arial][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2]In  a nutshell, why I oppose crossbows for everybody.[/font][/size][/font][/size][/font][/size][/font]
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[font=arial]1. The resource. The deer herd is being controlled with the current list of legal weapons.[/font]
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[font=arial]2. No lack of bowhunters, WI is a near record numbers of bowhunters so recruitment is not an issue.[/font]
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[font=arial]3. Todays crossbows will be considered low powered dinosaurs compared to future crossbows.[/font]
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[font=arial]4. Todays modern compound is much easier to draw and hold and bows as low as 40 pounds develope great K.E. and efficiency and killing power which allows women, kids and the ach and pains crowd to use a bow.[/font]
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[font=arial]5. The handicapped and elderly are all ready allowed to use a crossbow.[/font]
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[font=arial]6. All WI surveys have indicated there is no support for changing the crossbow laws.[/font]
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[font=arial][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2]Now, since you asked a question of those opposed to crossbows in the WI archery deer season, let me ask you some questions. Please be so kind as to answer them.[/font][/size][/font][/size][/font][/size][/font]

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[/align][font=arial][font=arial][size=2][font=arial][size=2]1. WI has had an archery deer season for about 80 years. It was the first state. All that time crossbows have been illegal. What has changed about the reasons why crossbows are illegal that suddenly makes them a good idea now? Remember Bowhunter numbers are at near record highs in WI so recruitment and retention are not a problem.

2. Why is the draw lock currently illegal in WI? If you wanted a bow held at full draw to eliminate human powered (important) aspect of taking game at close quarters, why would you not petition for this sort of change and keep your current bow?

3. Who is excluded from archery, since there are no laws prohibiting crossbows from archery?

4. Under the current statutes, who is excluded from Bowhunting in WI? (hint, the elderly and handicapped can already use a crossbow)

5. Do you think allowing crossbows for all persons in WI will result in a further reduction in the already depleted deer herd? [/font][/size][/font][/size][/font]


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Now a multiple choice question.

6. Now that much of the state's deer population is at goal in many areas and far below goal in 19 units prohibiting any antlerless harvest (all done courtesy of the current legal weapons), it clear that adding crossbows to the archery deer season would result in additional harvests. Do you think this will result in (select only from the 3 answers below)

(A.) A change to the archery tag to make it buck only like was attempted last year

(B.) Move the gun hunt up into the rut and extend it like was attempted last year.

(C.) A reduction in gun hunting tags to prevent over harvest?.
 
 
Thanks.[/font][/size][/font][/size][/font]



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[Legnip]

Great thoughts good opinions.

If I read this correctly, then you believe that crossbows shouldn't be allowed because...

1. Gun hunters don't like bow hunters because
a. bowhunters harvest too many deer. - I don't know the exact numbers, but most of the harvest is during gun season.
b. there isn't enough deer to go around. - I would agree. The deer population has been over harvested by natural predators (wolves, coyotes, & bears) and the issuance of excessive doe permits by the DNR.
c. gun hunters want to hunt during the prime rut. - I believe that a natural or excessive buck harvest during the rut would substantially reduce the % of does bred during their first cycle. The does would then be bred at a later date. The resulting fawns would be younger, smaller, and would not survive a WI winter. The damage would be a set back to the 50's.

more later. I've got to get kids to bed. Great post though.

[Legnip]

cont.

The 19 unit "No Doe Zone" is probably an over reaction, but it is the most conservative method for fixing the DNR's error in over harvest. The DNR doesn't know how many deer are actually out there. Now that the wolf population is very strong, the DNR doesn't have anyone on staff who understands the impact wolves have on an eco-system.

Crossbow Technology?
I'm going to ask you two questions:
1) Have you ever shot a crossbow first hand?
2) How reliable is the testamony of a salesman?

I went to the link that you provided. It was an interesting article, but I believe that the picture were a pure fabrication by an over zealous salesman/new owner. One of the pictures shows 2 arrows that were supposedly shot at 40 yards and are supposed to be 0.875". First, 2 arrows do not may a viable group to measure, but using the bolts as a scale, it seems larger than 0.875". Second, The arrows are sitting at differnt angles, as if they were placed by hand. Third, my crossbow is slower than the Tac-15, but it would blow through this type of target, or at least bury up to the fletchings.

Shooting at 100 yards... The group shown again only shows 1 arrow with a couple holes. The explaination was that the same arrow was shot for consistency. The group shown on the hand drawn target is all over the place. Crossbows are accurate, but not that accurate.

more later...

[Whitetailaddict]

It doesn't matter if they're extremely accurate or not, what matters is that they never become legal to use during bow season. If you're physically able to draw a bow then there's no way you should be trying to hunt with a cross bow.

[Whitetailaddict]

Hunters these days are just looking for the easiest way to do everything and this is just another example. Get to work, don't just take the easy way out. I don't know about you guys but the work leading up to harvesting a deer is one of the best parts of it all.

[Legnip]

ORIGINAL: Whitetailaddict

It doesn't matter if they're extremely accurate or not, what matters is that they never become legal to use during bow season. If you're physically able to draw a bow then there's no way you should be trying to hunt with a cross bow.

You never have to use one, but why would you make that decision for someone else. I believe the we should have the freedom and liberty to make that choice for ourselves. Why does it matter what the other guy uses, if you are only concerned about the practice that leads up to the season. I loved shooting my compound. I would break my arrows at 40 yards, if I shot multiple arrows at a 2" dot, but kids and a career have shot that free time to pieces.

Do you show with a recurve?
Do you shoot cedar arrows?

Compound bows went through the same issues when they first came out as well. States like Ohio have been using crossbows for years.

I could also make the same arguement about rifles. They are more accurate. Most hunters will shoot a couple rounds to make sure that their gun is still on. I know that some don't sight in there weapon every year.

Why limit the freedom of choice?

[Dan Salmon]

Kind of like limiting gun hunters from experiencing hunting during the rut?  Right?

[Legnip]

ORIGINAL: retch sweeny

1. WI has had an archery deer season for about 80 years. It was the first state. All that time crossbows have been illegal. What has changed about the reasons why crossbows are illegal that suddenly makes them a good idea now? Remember Bowhunter numbers are at near record highs in WI so recruitment and retention are not a problem.

--- Past regulations should have not bearing on future decisions. If that was the case, then 81 years ago bow season would never been allowed.
--- Recruitment and retention are not a problem??? Hunting numbers are declining. The hunting population is getting older. This is a slippery slope statement. Saying that there are enough people is very close to excluding new hunters.

2. Why is the draw lock currently illegal in WI? If you wanted a bow held at full draw to eliminate human powered (important) aspect of taking game at close quarters, why would you not petition for this sort of change and keep your current bow?

----- I agree. Draw-loc should be legal. I don't know of any viable reason that it is against the law.

3. Who is excluded from archery, since there are no laws prohibiting crossbows from archery?

----- Crossbows are currently against the law for all with a few exceptions.

4. Under the current statutes, who is excluded from Bowhunting in WI? (hint, the elderly and handicapped can already use a crossbow)

----- Consider the ramifications that a person must go through to use a crossbow. A person must go to a doctor, who may or may not know anything about archer, and convince them that they are "Handicapped". Now that this person is technically considered handicapped, what does that mean. If they were ever to hurt themselve while at work, the insurance hounds would now have something to use against them. There is also a huge stigma against being classified as "Disabled or Handicapped". My step father, who is fairly young has a problem with his shoulder. It hurts to pull back his bow, but he can still pull the required weight. So, he isn't eligible for a crossbow. He just needs to endure hours of pain while practicing, then the pain during muscle recovery, and then hope that he can make things happen after sitting still for 2-3 hours in freezing cold weather. He isn't going to hunt with a bow this year because of this.

5. Do you think allowing crossbows for all persons in WI will result in a further reduction in the already depleted deer herd?

---- I do not believe that crossbows will impact the population. Only better managment can improve the current situation. The gun harvest is the problem.


Now a multiple choice question.

6. Now that much of the state's deer population is at goal in many areas and far below goal in 19 units prohibiting any antlerless harvest (all done courtesy of the current legal weapons), it clear that adding crossbows to the archery deer season would result in additional harvests. Do you think this will result in (select only from the 3 answers below)

(A.) A change to the archery tag to make it buck only like was attempted last year

(B.) Move the gun hunt up into the rut and extend it like was attempted last year.

(C.) A reduction in gun hunting tags to prevent over harvest?.

(D.) None of the above.

---
"D" is my answer.
"A" is a foolish solution by a DNR management machine that doesn't know what they are doing.
"B" is a terrible idea. This would reduce the percentage of does that are breed through the first cycle. Fawns from the second breeding cycle will not survive the winter in WI.
"C" is not viable. Excessive doe harvest and too many large predators are the problem with the current deer population.

Thanks.[/size][/font][/size][/font][/size][/font]



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I really like the though put into your post. I've inserted my comments above.

[retch sweeny]

[font=arial]Legnip, I will honor your request. You said:[/font]
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[/align]I'm going to ask you two questions:
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1) Have you ever shot a crossbow first hand? 

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[/align][font=arial]Yes, I bought my first crossbow back in 1982. I shot the hell out of it. Since then I have purchased 2 more for my Father. One is a Horton recurve and the other a Horton Compound. I do all his bolt building and broadhead tuning and sighting and I draw it back for him and take him hunting with the crossbow. He is now 74 and has killed a few deer with it. Since I am under the age of 65 and I am not disabled, I cannot hunt with a crossbow but I have taken several rough animals (rodents) with a crossbow. I have nearly 30 years of first hand crossbow experience with several models.[/font]
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2) How reliable is the testamony of a salesman? 

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[/align][font=arial]Very. If they make false claims, their sales will falter if the item can't meet the sales pitch. In the case of the PSE TAC 15, the sales pitch and the reviews match. The performance of the PSE TAC 15 is now very well known and has been independently verified by others.[/font]
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[/align][font=arial]You asked a few questions of other posters here but since I like a good discussion, I will answer the questions you asked. (I would hope you would do the same with the questions I asked you.) You said:[/font]
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You never have to use one, but why would you make that decision for someone else.

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[/align][font=arial]The state made that call. Not hunters or any posters here. The statutes are clear.[/font]
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 I believe the we should have the freedom and liberty to make that choice for ourselves.

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[/align][font=arial]In most cases, I agree with that line of thought but I am not free to choose to use full metal jacketed ammo nor am I free to use a fully auto firearm nor a poison tipped arrow. The list of things I cant hunt with are quite long. The crossbow is just another in a long list.[/font]
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Why does it matter what the other guy uses

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[/align][font=arial]Read my first post for a very complete explanation of why.[/font]
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Do you show with a recurve? Do you shoot cedar arrows?  

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[/align][font=arial]Yes and Yes. I make my own bows and arrows and even my own broadheads. I make my own leather finger tab and quiver as well. I hunt with a 50 pound homemade Longbow. I have also hunted and harvested deer with a compound.[/font]
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Why limit the freedom of choice? 

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[/align][font=arial]That is the law. The majority of hunters in WI support that law. They have been asked via the DNR and via the Conservation Congress. [/font]
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