Crossbow Restrictions

[umpiremark]

"The public has made their opinion well known going back many years."

I'm sorry Retch, you're so closed minded in your zeal, you're not listening one tiny bit.

I have neither discredited nor disregarded your data, not in the slightest. What I did say - and you have yet to respond to or refute - is that the sample size you propose as "the public has spoken" data, is statitically too small to garner an accurate conclusion. This, is a statistical analysis fact.

I tire of your run around answers without substance. Until you can irrefutibly prove that the majority of your total population pool (i.e. the 650,000 deer hunters in this state) has stated approval or disapproval, I can no longer view your stance as valid.

Statistaclly you have no conclusive data to support your conclusions (note the word conclusive; you just have data, which is different than conclusive data).

"Legislative policy makers, the CC and the DNR seem to hold stock in this data ..."

I believe the same thing could be said about legislative leaders years ago that supported slavery and Jim Crowe laws. Point: Not everything legislated today is correct and without flaws.

[retch sweeny]

ORIGINAL: umpiremark

Until you can irrefutibly prove that the majority of your total population pool (i.e. the 650,000 deer hunters in this state) has stated approval or disapproval, I can no longer view your stance as valid.

Thank Gawwwwd. Now I can spend more time with the incoming freshman class in the legislature. Our lobbyist is working on the meet and greats and office visits. I will let them and the CC and the DNR know that you hold little stock in the survey data. I'm sure it will rock them to their very core. [;)]

"Not everything legislated today is correct and without flaws. "

Correct but it sure beats the hell out of what your doing. LOL 2/3 of the battle is showing up and thus far, were out there alone since the other side (the internet blabbers) are stuck here shouting into an empty bucket while we are at work protecting and defending the archery deer season.

Thankfully every time expansion comes up, we are on it in a flash. Always watchful, always vigilant. [:)]

I do enjoy educating you on this subject. Let me know how legislating from an internet chat room works out for you.

[retch sweeny]

Let me know when you have anything of substance showing majority support for full inclusion in WI. I'll be waiting.

[retch sweeny]

[blockquote]

[font=arial]Since it is clear that you have a real thirst for learning about the crossbow situation in WI, you will want to test what you have learned thus far. Please answers to these questions[/font] 
[font=arial]1. Why is the crossbow currently illegal in WI? (and I mean really..... Why is it illegal?) (Typically, this is an emotional reply that has nothing to do why the law is what it is.) Try to refrain from that and explain why the crossbow is not legal for the able bodied in the archery deer season. [/font]
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[font=arial]2. What has changed about the real reasons why crossbows are illegal in WI that suddenly makes them a good idea for WI now ? [/font]
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[font=arial]3. Why is the draw lock currently illegal in WI? [/font]
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[font=arial]4. Who is excluded form archery in WI, since there are no laws prohibiting crossbows from archery?[/font]
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[font=arial]5. Under the current statutes, who is excluded from Bowhunting in WI? [/font]
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[blockquote]
[/align][font=arial]6. If crossbow supporters want to avoid the drawing of a bow at the time of the shot and want a bow held at full draw to eliminate the human powered (and very important) aspect of taking game at close quarters, why would do they not first petition for making draw locks legal in WI as this sort of change would allow them keep their current bow? [/font]
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[/align][font=arial]7. Estimate how many additional hunters (that didn't bow hunt before) would hunt the WI archery deer season if crossbows were made legal? I hear about all the extra revenue that the WI DNR would get if the law were to change (as if that were a valid reason to change the law) but as of yet, nobody has been able to put together any sort of impact study. Please provide participation estimates.[/font]
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[/align][font=arial]8. Because the deer herd in WI is the lowest its been in 2 decades and gun hunters are calling for a shortening of the archery deer season and removing the antlerless tag from from bowhunters statewide and all hunters are prohibited from harvesting antlerless deer in 19 units this year and all of this has taken place with the currently available (legal) weapons (without crossbows) proving the current weapons are more than capable of controlling the deer herd, do you think adding additional hunters killing additional deer before the gun deer season will lead to further prohibitions and restrictions on bowhunters since it's already happening without crossbows being legal?[/font]
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[/align][font=arial]9. Are you aware that archery deer licenses in WI are not suffering losses in sales and that they are at near record levels showing recruitment and retention of bowhunters here is solid and strong?[/font]
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[/align][font=arial]10. If at some point in the future, crossbows are made legal to use in the WI archery deer season, do you favor a measure that allows for demographics to be gathered allowing the WI DNR to capture the impacts, participation, success rates and other data for crossbow users? A separate crossbow license, stamp, registration, etc?[/font]
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[Dan Salmon]

Mark,

This is exactly why government is so f'd up in this country.  There is only one way of doing things and it happens to be the way they want to do it.

Trying to argue is not an option, because your opinion and or knowledge that refutes their position doesn't matter.

[retch sweeny]

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"Trying to argue is not an option, because your opinion and or knowledge that refutes their position doesn't matter. "

[/font][/size][/font][/align][font=arial][font="times new roman"][size=100][/font][/size][/font] [/align][font=arial][font="times new roman"][size=100][/font][/size][/font] [/align][font=arial][font="times new roman"][size=100]As of yet, there has been no knowledge used to refute the position of either myself, WBH, P&Y, Professional Bowhunters Society, North American Bowhunters coalition, other state bowhunters orgs, etc. You keep wanting to forget we have been at this for a very long time and have a tremendous about of information and background in this subject matter and have built a solid foundation on which this position rests. [/font][/size][/font][/align][font=arial][font="times new roman"][size=100][/font][/size][/font] [/align][font=arial][font="times new roman"][size=100]Every now and again a few newcomers stumble across this idea thinking it is something new that hasn't been hashed over and over and over for years and they are certain they have it figured out. Pardon me if I take these uneducated opinions with a grain of salt and a hearty laugh. I'm waiting for somebody................ anybody to over up anything to refute but as of yet, all I hear is I I I and ME ME ME and I want I want I want, gimmie gimmie gimmie. I understand the instant gratification society mindset and the I want it all and I want it now and I want to expend the least amount of effort and skill because I just want to kill a deer during the archery deer season mindset. [/font][/size][/font][/align][font=arial][font="times new roman"][size=100][/font][/size][/font] [/align][font=arial][font="times new roman"][size=100]I was not asked to chair the NABC crossbow committee because I just fell of the turnip truck. This idea is as old as the hills and thankfully state policy makers are kept informed on this subject. I've asked for data that shows majority support for full intrusion of crossbows, I have asked some very good questions and thus far I get silly hyperbole and la la la and nothing of substance.  [/font][/size][/font][/align][font=arial][font="times new roman"][size=100][/font][/size][/font] [/align][font=arial][font="times new roman"][size=100]Dan, you forgive me if I dismiss anything you have to say on the subject since your not even a bowhunter but certain you have this bowhunter issue all figured out. I see guys like you all the time. Entertaining, certainly but all flash and no bang. I long for a debate of substance and answers to the questions I've asked but thus far.......................... Crickets.[/font][/size][/font][/align][font=arial][font="times new roman"][size=100][/font][/size][/font] [/align][font=arial][font="times new roman"][size=100]I started a couple other threads to keep you guys educated on the crossbow issue. There is plenty to be learned from folks that have been around this issue for a few years but you would like to ignore that and insist that your opinion is the only one that matters and anybody that disagrees with you is wrong. It seems to me you got it 100% backwards. LOL[/font][/size][/font][/align][font=arial][font="times new roman"][size=100][/font][/size][/font] [/align][font=arial][font="times new roman"][size=100]Frankly this topic bores me. If not for the entertainment value here, there would be little reason to return to this thread.[/font][/align][/size][/font]

[retch sweeny]

[font=arial][font="times new roman"][size=100][/font][/size][/font][font=arial][font="times new roman"][size=100]Let me put it to you this way, Lets say you have been employed and trained and working intimately and educated on a subject for years and then somebody utterly new to the subject matter pops onto the scene (or in Dan's case somebody who does not even partake in the subject matter but is free to offer an opinion anyway) and hopes to tell you how it is or insists their uneducated opinions are to be valued. You would most likely do everything in your power not to laugh in their face and dismiss them until they became versed in the subject matter. Rather than laugh (although many of the comments here have been hysterical) I have been trying to bring you guys up to speed yet on day one you want the freshman to host the class to a retired alumni. LOL[/font][/size][/font]
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[font=arial][size=2]It would be like me going to an ice dancing forum or ballroom dancing forum and burst onto the scene and espouse all sorts of opinions and rules changes for something I am clueless on just because I want to see change. Sure, I can have an opinion but its based on nothing of substance compared to those intimate and well versed on the subject matter. As such, my opinions will be summarily dismissed as having no value beyond that of entertainment.[/font][/align]

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[umpiremark]

*bump*

"October 29, 2010.

From Nebraska Game and Parks:

The Nebraska Game and Parks Board of Commissioners approved the wider use of crossbows as big game hunting equipment at its October 28 meeting in Norfolk.

In Nebraska, crossbows have been allowed as legal equipment during firearm seasons for decades. Starting in 1985, crossbows were allowed during the archery season for those with a permanent disability that prevented them from drawing a bow. Nebraska officials estimate 2,000 hunters will use crossbows in 2011, not all of them new.

Now, all restrictions on crossbows have been removed, including the disability provision and draw weight. The new regulations allow, starting in 2011, crossbows as legal archery equipment for big game (deer, antelope, elk, turkey, and bighorn sheep). "

[Wolf River Hunter]

**Rich Walters, a spokesman with the Nebraska Bowhunters Association, opposes the change on the grounds that it could degrade the archery season by allowing in too many hunters. Roughly 14,000 people buy an archery permit each year.**

I couldn't find much on-line about why Nebraska moved that direction. Speculation about a senator having a hard on for crossbows and the NRA backing it but not much about hunters calling for it.

[retch sweeny]

Correct. That is why the WBH has hired a gevernmental relations person within walking distance of the capital to ensure the archery deer season is preserved and protected from such negative changes. Some things are too important to be left to chance and are worth working hard to defend. [;)]

Glad this thread was revisited. I left a series of very good questions that remain unanswered by those wishing for crossguns in the archery deer season. I wonder what they are afraind of. The questions are quite simple. [:D]