Crossbow question highlights hearings

Dan Salmon
 
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RE: Crossbow question highlights hearings

Postby Dan Salmon » Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:30 pm

Retch,

If you are so into protecting bow hunting "tradition", then why in heavens name are you a proponent of the compound bow also?  The compound bow is no more "traditional" than the crossbow.  The greatest advances in it's technology having happened in the past 30 years (much like the current technological innovations in crossbows), make them hardly "traditional".  And now with the latest technological advances in cams and what not, a bow hunter doesn't necessarily have to over come the weight of draw in the presence of game anymore than the gun hunter needs to move in the presence of game.  The guy shooting an 85% let off compound bow can draw when he first sees a deer and hold (assuming 60# draw weight) 9 lbs of draw almost infinitely. 

It seems very clear, by all the information shouted here, WBH is not interested in protecting "traditional" bow hunting as it were, but bow hunting as it is currently and how it currently affects all of its members. 

WBH would probably gain more approval, instead of losing it, if they'd just call a spade a spade and not try pulling the wool over everyone else's eyes.

How many more long, bitter diatribes can you post Retch? 

retch sweeny
 
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RE: Crossbow question highlights hearings

Postby retch sweeny » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:00 pm

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ORIGINAL Dan Salmon[/font][/size][/font]


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[/align][font=arial][font="times new roman"][size=100]"Retch,

If you are so into protecting bow hunting "tradition", then why in heavens name are you a proponent of the compound bow also?  The compound bow is no more "traditional" than the crossbow.  The greatest advances in it's technology having happened in the past 30 years (much like the current technological innovations in crossbows), make them hardly "traditional".  And now with the latest technological advances in cams and what not, a bow hunter doesn't necessarily have to over come the weight of draw in the presence of game anymore than the gun hunter needs to move in the presence of game.  The guy shooting an 85% let off compound bow can draw when he first sees a deer and hold (assuming 60# draw weight) 9 lbs of draw almost infinitely. 
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[/align][font=arial][font="times new roman"][size=100]We, you stated before that are not a bowhunter and don't bowhunt so I doubt you will care to listen or understand as you seem to have your mind made up but I have faith in your ability to comprehend so I am not apt to give up in you just yet. A vertical bow built 1,000 years ago with a peak weight of 60 lbs and one built tomorrow will have to be drawn back in exactly the same way. One hand gripping the bow while the other is used to draw the string. That 1,000 year old bow and a new compound with a peak draw weight have to be pulled with human power to every one of those 60 pounds with all the related motion required. During the last inch of draw on the modern bow, there is a reduction in holding weight but the holding weight has never been the issue (well it is to those that hope to distract) [/font][/size][/font]


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[/align][font=arial][font="times new roman"][size=100]The compound of today gets its draw, hold, anchor, aim, release from the very origins (traditions) of archery. As a non-archer/bowhunter, you will want to know that holding 9 Lbs. (or whatever) draw weight for an extended period of time is not so simple as you misunderstand it to be. One tires quite quickly and then has to go through the entire draw cycle again with all the related motion (and  fatigue) in the same way the very first archer did. Yes, the compound of today is vertical and traditional archery from the time of old. Perhaps your confusion stems from the myriad of accessories some attach to their bow. You will want to know that a recurve and long bow accepts all of those accessories if the owner wishes to add them.

It seems very clear, by all the information shouted here, WBH is not interested in protecting "traditional" bow hunting as it were, but bow hunting as it is currently and how it currently affects all of its members. 

WBH would probably gain more approval, instead of losing it, if they'd just call a spade a spade and not try pulling the wool over everyone else's eyes.
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[/align][font=arial][font="times new roman"][size=100]For the purposes of hunting with a bow and arrow as an archery season under a hunting license, that originated in WI in the 1930's due to the founder of the Wisconsin Bowhunters Assoc.The legal definitions and descriptions of a bow were born here. 50 years ago (yesterday) Pope and Young originated and surprisingly enough, agree on the definition of a bow and arrow for taking game. The professional bowhunters Society and the North American Bowhunting Coalition likewise agree so you will understand when I tell you that these are not my definitions of traditional archery but long established and incorporated in WI statute. [font=arial][size=2]Drawing that bow back at the exact time needed to avoid detection is something I can only explain to you since you have not attempted it but I am certain that with your lack of experience in this subject, you will hope to correct me.[/font]

How many more long, bitter diatribes can you post Retch?  
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[/align][font=arial][font="times new roman"][size=100]As many as it takes. I said I would not give up on you, a non-bowhunter and I meant that.Here is the funny thing about internet discussion forums. What we do here is offer up our stances on issues and explain how we came to the foundation of our stances. Then the other guy gives his and so on and so forth. I am not aware of a size or text limit in terms of expressing ones reasons for the stances he takes. The position I hold is based on the many issues I addressed above. You are free to disagree if you like and to offer your own reasons why you think the way you do. I'm ok with that. I have heard it all before but feel free to express. This is a weighty matter and legislation is not entered into lightly or without much discussion and deliberation. If you are not interested in that, a discussion forum may not be the best place for you. you may want to look into how you can become King or Dictator and rule be decree. Until such time, either discuss or stick your fingers in your ears and chant  lalalalalalala until this matter is settled.[/font][/size][/font]
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[font=arial][size=2][font="times new roman"][size=100]Either way, know that your opinions are formed in ignorance of the subject matter as you are not a bowhunter as well as a dislike for me. Take the opportunity to gather input from those with over 3 1/2 decades of practical application. You will be the wiser for it.[;)]
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umpiremark
 
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RE: Crossbow question highlights hearings

Postby umpiremark » Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:07 pm

Hey Retch, or Rancid, or Ron, or whatever ... thanks for posting 10 pages of ... well ... whatever.

Also, make sure the WBH are fully represented at all county meetings and insure that they outnumber the common folk, so you can stuff the ballot boxes. Heaven forbid any rules would go astray from the WBH ideals.
One day my ship will come in!! My luck, I'll be at the airport.

retch sweeny
 
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RE: Crossbow question highlights hearings

Postby retch sweeny » Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:28 pm

My guess is that this is an important matter to not only WBH members but the hundreds of thousands of bowhunters in WI. This will no doubt motivate them to show up on both sides. Those that care and have an opinion will show up. Those that don't care will stay home. This is how these things work in all circles where public input is sought. The side with the most folks that show up to answer the question asked will be representative of the concerned sporting community. Those that don't care, don't count and don't matter. They have always gotten the kind of government they deserve.

Since there is no such thing as ballot stuffing for a spring hearing. If there is truely a large majority of avid crossbow supporters in WI, they would do well to make their voices heard that night. If they exist is great number and are the majority, then they will drive the change they seek. Every person gets one vote in his county, the "common folk" as you call them are the only people that will show up. There is no special class of people that will turn out that night and all will be treated equally. Any suggestion to the contrary is silly. To the motivated and caring people with an interest in the question being asked, will go the vote. That is how this has worked for 75 years. I wouldnt have it any other way.

Dan Salmon
 
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RE: Crossbow question highlights hearings

Postby Dan Salmon » Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:59 pm

If you are not interested in that, a discussion forum may not be the best place for you. you may want to look into how you can become King or Dictator and rule be decree.


The only person I see on here that continuously posts the same information over and over again so that the "two-toothers" that frequent here will understand how stupid and uninformed that we are, is you.  That is more dictator like than any other here.  I'm sorry that I was taught to question people's motives when it's clear that those motives are not what they appear to be.  Most would call that being a citizen and would be respected for not just taking what is spoon fed them.

[font="arial"][size="2"][font="arial"][size="2"][font="times new roman"][size="3"]Either way, know that your opinions are formed in ignorance of the subject matter as you are not a bowhunter as well as a dislike for me. Take the opportunity to gather input from those with over 3 1/2 decades of practical application. You will be the wiser for it.[/size][/font][/size][/font][/size][/font]


Again you are correct, at least in your own mind.  Just because someone does something for a long period of time does not make them correct.  If you need an example, one just needs to ask South Africa about apartheid or any Cuban how life is on the island under Castro.  There are many years of experience in both instances, but most, except for those ruling, would tell you it is not the right way.

[font="arial"][size="2"][font="times new roman"][size="3"][font="arial"][size="2"]Drawing that bow back at the exact time needed to avoid detection is something I can only explain to you since you have not attempted it but I am certain that with your lack of experience in this subject, you will hope to correct me.[/size][/font][/size][/font][/size][/font]


I have never once said that I haven't bow hunted in the past, I currently do not because of life circumstances and time restraints, but to be quite frank with you all my gun stands are setup in places that give little if any advantage to a gun hunter over a bow hunter.  On public land you need to sit in the thick stuff if you expect to see anything.  A gun hunter within 40 yards of a deer on the ground is no advantage to a bow hunter, you still need to move.  Your holier than thou attitude about bow hunters being the only hunters that need to move within spitting distance of a deer is bologna. 

Chainsaw
 
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RE: Crossbow question highlights hearings

Postby Chainsaw » Sun Jan 30, 2011 2:13 pm

retch, as a man with definate opinions on matters concerning deer hunting, how do look upon the advisory question of rifles to be legalised statewide during the gun deer season? Just curious. Anyone else have an opinion.

BTW Mine is yes, bring on the rifle.

Wolf River Hunter
 
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RE: Crossbow question highlights hearings

Postby Wolf River Hunter » Sun Jan 30, 2011 9:17 pm

Just out of curiosity...why is drawing the weight an issue but holding the weight not?
I'd rather drag out a 4 pointer with my father than a 10 pointer alone.

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umpiremark
 
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RE: Crossbow question highlights hearings

Postby umpiremark » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:12 am

A seasoned deer hunter takes up his stand at a favorable pinch point between a bedding and feeding area. Perched 16-feet in his tree stand, the hunter patiently waits for the familiar “shsht, shst, shst” of movement along the forest floor. His ears detect the deer long before his eyes settle on the slight movements in the underbrush. Careful scouting and highly knowledgeable about deer, especially on his property, the veteran hunter knows this deer will soon walk into the shooting window where the three trails intersect. As the deer approaches this narrow window, the hardened deer hunter:

a) rises, draws his 60-lb bow and settles the kisser button to his right lip. The bow settles in his left hand and through the peep sight, he places the green fluorescent pin on the buck’s vitals. Now at full draw, he settles his wavering left arm, holding back the 12 lbs of draw weight on his 80% let-off bow. Slowly his aim settles on the “hair” he chooses on the buck’s vitals and a gentle squeeze on his mechanical release, launches the arrow at 310 fps towards the deer … … …

OR
b) settles in the stand’s seat and places the crossbow’s stock into his right shoulder. The bow settles in his left hand and through the scoped sight, he places the crosshairs on the buck’s vitals. Now at full alert, he settles his wavering left arm, holding up 10 lbs of bow weight against gravity. Slowly his aim settles on the “hair” he chooses on the buck’s vitals and a gentle squeeze on the trigger, launches the bolt at 310 fps towards the deer … … …

What’s the big deal?
One day my ship will come in!! My luck, I'll be at the airport.

retch sweeny
 
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RE: Crossbow question highlights hearings

Postby retch sweeny » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:53 pm

One guy shoulders his loaded weapon, he lowers his eye into the scope, He places his cheek on the stock then flips off the safety. He rests the weapon the shooting rail then inserts his finger into the trigger guard. He positions the forearm of the stock on the rail while taking aim. The deer is looking right at him but the deer vitals are blocked so he must wait nearly 10 minutes for the deer that is still studying his position to step one more step into the opening. The wait matters not for the only movement required is the flexing of an index finger. He can wait all day with ease. suddenly the deer turns on a dime and faces the hunter and stands there for a few more minutes. Motionless and ready when the moment presents itself, the shooter pulls the trigger of the weapon to discharge it at the deer.

The other guy could not hold the bow at full draw nor the weight of the bow unaided by a rail so he had no choice but to let down with all the noise and motion associated with bowhunting. The deer leaves the area only to return 15 minutes later. It knows something is up as it stares at the tree with the bowhunter. The cold and fatigue from the last attempted shot has taken its toll on the bowhunter and he must now raise the bow far above his head to muster the strength to pull back the full weight in the presence of the watchful deer. Halfway through the draw, all the bowhunting related noise and movement gives away his position but he holds the draw as the deer only bolts 10 yards farther but he is tired and shaking with nothing to rest against to steady the bow arm.

The deer looks away long enough for the bowhunter to let up but the power of the bowstring whips his arm forward and the arrow falls of the string onto the ground. Game over. But wait!. A different and lager deer appears. With a new arrow on the string the archer tries but cant pull the bow back again and watches the deer disappear of the hill. He is happy as a lark because he knows that is what the challenge of bowhunting is all about. Overcoming all the effort and motion and noise related to attempting a shot makes the sport the challenge that it is. It make the harvest that much sweeter. It makes it an actual accomplishment.

If he does not get a crack at the deer during the bow season there is always the firearms season where he shoulders his loaded weapon, he lowers his eye into the scope, places his cheek on the stock then flips off the safety. He rests the weapon the shooting rail then inserts his finger into the trigger guard. He positions the forearm of the stock on the rail while taking aim. Motionless and ready when the moment presents itself, the shooter pulls the trigger of the weapon to discharge it at the deer. Its a kill and he is a shooter. Not much of a challenge or much in the way of satisfaction for accomplishing anything that was difficult but he killed something.

Big deal indeed. [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D]

Dan Salmon
 
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RE: Crossbow question highlights hearings

Postby Dan Salmon » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:30 pm

Your reading comprehension skills are very poorly lacking. 

I now know that you've been hanging around politicians for far too long.  You hear what you want to and ignore what you don't want to hear.

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