Crossbow question highlights hearings

[retch sweeny]

Coming up against the cold hard truth can be a bit of a shocker to some. It may cause one to lash out and insult the writer (as just witnessed) . Take the time to read it again and tell me which weapon we are talking about.

One guy shoulders his loaded weapon, he lowers his eye into the scope, He places his cheek on the stock then flips off the safety. He rests the weapon the shooting rail then inserts his finger into the trigger guard. He positions the forearm of the stock on the rail while taking aim. The deer is looking right at him but the deer vitals are blocked so he must wait nearly 10 minutes for the deer that is still studying his position to step one more step into the opening. The wait matters not for the only movement required is the flexing of an index finger. He can wait all day with ease. suddenly the deer turns on a dime and faces the hunter and stands there for a few more minutes. Motionless and ready when the moment presents itself, the shooter pulls the trigger of the weapon to discharge it at the deer. [;)]

[umpiremark]

In my scenario, I never once mentioned a gun rest on my hunters' stand. Thus, my verbiage that says, "... he steadies his left arm against the 10 lb weight of the bow against gravity."

No worries, I did not put that out there to make a point by point comparison of one weapon to another. Here's my point ... if there was an internet and a forum like this in the early/mid seventies, many, many bow hunters would have responded to the question of compound bows overtaking (and ruining) the sport of bow hunting by the traditional "stick and string" bowhunters. The WBH Association was probably one of the loudest opponents to compounds "ruining" the tradition.

Ah, but there were forums back then ... the barbershops and gas stations; gymnasiums and coffee shops; corner taverns - where ever men gathered and talked deer hunting; like here. The cry AGAINST compound bows was as loud - save for as widespread - as the angst that follows this supject on here, on these boards. Those for, those against and those inbetween that just want to know more. More truths, not falacy.

In my evolution as a bow hunter, I went from the Bear recurve of the early '70's to my first compound (which required a forklift and a hoist to carry around) with its phenominal (back then) 35% let off. My Golden Eagle bow that I have owned for 20 years at 60 lbs and 50% let off has produced some nice bucks, some fat does and some great family memories. At 55, my 80% let off bow now aids in my quest ... and that quest is ... (wait for it) ... to shoot straighter, faster, more accurately to dispatch a deer as humanely as possible within my physical capabilities: ethically and morally - and legally.

Technology abides that quest. Innovation and technology has improved the sport of deer hunting - aiding in the quick, clean dispatch of a glorious animal - humanly and accurately. Innovation and technology brought the compound bow, graphite arrows, mechanical broadheads, 35, 50, 80% let off, dual and single cams. Innovation and technology brought lighter, faster bows with arrows almost as light as air. Innovation and technology brings the next advanced step - often unheard of or unthought of a mere 10 years ago - to our sport. I embrace technology and its aid in fulfilling my quest. If it's crossbows and crossbows can humanley kill a deer and leave the same excitement, chase, memories and comradre as my previous 4 or 5 bows, I'm all for it.

If my neighbor, on his property, chooses to hunt with a crossbow and kills a deer, I'm happy for him. I'll congratulate him. And you know what? He's done hunting, just like he would be with a compound or stick and string. And that means more deer for me, because he done. The long and short of it; I don't care. To each his own.

[Dan Salmon]

Again, your reading comprehension pales...

Slowly his aim settles on the “hair” he chooses on the buck’s vitals and a gentle squeeze on his mechanical release, launches the arrow at 310 fps towards the deer …

Sounds like a trigger to me.  Hmmm.

I will say this Retch, previous Totalitarian Dictators are standing and applauding your gusto but they seem to be the only ones.  Pining away for a cabinet seat in Washington Retch?

[gruberr]

Dan and Umpiremark, please go back and re-read both stories and I mean that in a nice way.
 
Story #1 represents a real-world situation where the stars have aligned and both hunters are able to make an easy harvest.  The weapons used in this unique situation did not prove any advantage over the other.  I'll give you that.
 
Story #2 also represents a real-world situation where the stars did not align and only one hunter was able to make a harvest due to a huge advantage of one weapon over the other. 
 
If you've done any kind of hunting outside of the firearms season, you know rarely do the stars align when it comes to whitetails and close range encounters.  Their noses, eyes, hearing, and "6th sense" are just too good.  I will give you that story #2 is slightly out of the norm too, but it is far more reality than #1.  Certainly you must agree with that???  There are many variations of story #2 where the ability to not have to draw and hold is a huge advantage.
 
 
So where am I going with this? 
 
Wisconsin has one of the highest quality herds, mostly in part due to great food/farming, soil, cover, and a firearms season that is mostly outside the primary rut.  Bowhunters in general do not have a huge impact on harvest, but it has been increasing over time as the popularity of the sport increases.  Besides potential pre-firearms season harvest impact another issue to look at is LONG TERM age structure/quality.  Will crossbows:
 
A. Improve age structure in WI
OR
B. Have no impact to age structure in WI
OR
C. Decrease age structure in WI
 
With 250,000+ current bowhunters (bound to go higher w this inclusion), a general population goal of anywhere from 15-30 deer per square mile dependent if you are in a farmland or forestland habitat, and most importantly from now to eternity for manufacturers to improve upon current crossbow technology, it's a no brainer that archery success rates will go up both in terms of overall harvest and mature deer. 
 
With the DNR mostly unwilling to up population goals due to reasons clearly explained over the last couple years, this means less deer and less mature deer on the landscape when firearm season rolls around as the archery harvest keeps increasing.  Firearm hunters are already fiercly upset with bowhunters.  I hear it EACH and EVERY year from my own hunting party and own family members.  Perhaps some of you have run into this as well?  This will only add fuel to the fire as not all firearm hunters will take up the archery season, but certainly some and perhaps a lot will.
 
 
One thing I hear a lot is that Ohio allows crossbows and still has great quality ("you can have it both ways" argument).  Yes it is true Ohio has great quality, but WI is not Ohio, make no mistake.  Maybe I'll have to eat a bit of crow with someone correcting me on some of this, but I believe Ohio is a 1 buck only state and does not allow rifles (shotguns only).  I'm also assuming they don't have 250K bowhunters and 700K firearm hunters of which not a single person can use a rifle.  Shotgun only firearms seasons = high quality ... Iowa, Illinois, and Ohio the envy of the nation all 3 having shotgun only firearm seasons.  As much I would like to see it return, I don't ever see WI going back to shotguns.  It's only going in the other direction.
 
If you deer hunted back in the 1970's and early 80's in WI, you know what kind of deer roamed the landscape back then.  I know I'll get blasted and be termed a no good "trophy" hunter and hear claims that every living deer no matter how old is a trophy.  I can only say I care for every deer just as much or more as the next guy and I'm more than happy when my neighbor harvests a mature animal and I go home empty handed.  And no I'll never claim to be a mighty great hunter.
 
Believe it or not there are still folks out there that would harvest each and every deer on the landscape if allowed to.  Just look at what happened to the NE units over the last couple years with uncontrolled EAB and herd control seasons.  Overall WI will probably never return to the days of 1.5 yr olds making up the majority of the herd, but I firmly believe 3-5 years into this we'll have taken a step back to 1970's and 80's.  I don't want to go in that direction, and I don't think there's too many out there that do.
 
 
I know this post will likely not convince those of you who have already made up your mind, but for those of you sitting on the fence about this issue and desire some kind of quality in the animals you hunt, please look long term (5+ years from now) and think of all aspects into your decision when it comes time to cast a vote in April: population goals, hunter density in your area, potential of crossbow technology, neighbor harvest preferences, your harvest preferences, what will be left when firearm season rolls around, what will be left the following season, etc, etc. 
 
From now to eternity is a long time.  How far and how fast will a crossbow shoot in 100 years, 200 years, 500 years or maybe just in 5-10 years?  What we all know is the average human armed with a compound bow will still only be able to pull back 50-70 pounds and will still have a high confidence range of just 20-40 yards.  This alone will ensure plenty of quantity and quality is left for firearm seasons and for survival going into the following season and still allow for those lucky enough for when the stars do align to have a succesful harvest.
 
 
The best days of WI deer hunting have developed over the last 10 years.  Let's keep it that way.

Go Packers!

[Dan Salmon]

With the DNR mostly unwilling to up population goals due to reasons clearly explained over the last couple years, this means less deer and less mature deer on the landscape when firearm season rolls around as the archery harvest keeps increasing. Firearm hunters are already fiercly upset with bowhunters. I hear it EACH and EVERY year from my own hunting party and own family members. Perhaps some of you have run into this as well? This will only add fuel to the fire as not all firearm hunters will take up the archery season, but certainly some and perhaps a lot will.

This must be a Southern phenomena because I've never heard it where I hunt in the Northeast.

One thing I hear a lot is that Ohio allows crossbows and still has great quality ("you can have it both ways" argument).  Yes it is true Ohio has great quality, but WI is not Ohio, make no mistake.  Maybe I'll have to eat a bit of crow with someone correcting me on some of this, but I believe Ohio is a 1 buck only state and does not allow rifles (shotguns only).  I'm also assuming they don't have 250K bowhunters and 700K firearm hunters of which not a single person can use a rifle.  Shotgun only firearms seasons = high quality ... Iowa, Illinois, and Ohio the envy of the nation all 3 having shotgun only firearm seasons.  As much I would like to see it return, I don't ever see WI going back to shotguns.  It's only going in the other direction.

It has been shown the last couple years that most deer hunters, bow and gun, in WI don't want to do what it takes to create a trophy deer state like those mentioned, they live in a trophy deer state despite how they are created and that is fine with most.  Iowa severely limits the number of non-resident hunters, Illinois severely limits the amount of hunting on state land, these are all things that would have most, if not all parties, squealing like stuck pigs in this state.  And lets not talk about a "1 Buck Rule" cause we've been down that road here already and no one is willing to give up the opportunity to shoot a buck with the gun if they've already shot one with their bow. 

Believe it or not there are still folks out there that would harvest each and every deer on the landscape if allowed to.  Just look at what happened to the NE units over the last couple years with uncontrolled EAB and herd control seasons.  Overall WI will probably never return to the days of 1.5 yr olds making up the majority of the herd, but I firmly believe 3-5 years into this we'll have taken a step back to 1970's and 80's.  I don't want to go in that direction, and I don't think there's too many out there that do.

Yes, you are right, and they will be the first to scream bloody murder when the deer are gone.  That is the way society is today and it's the way society was back in the market hunting days, so really, nothing has changed much.  I doubt that there will be much of a move from 1.5 year old deer making up the majority of the herd, except in a downward population trend like we are experiencing now.  Deer rebound quickly, are prolific breeders when conditions are right (I.e.the 90's) and I'm sure we will see the majority of the herd become 1.5 year old deer again. 

Have you noticed a similarity to winter conditions from the late 70's or early 80's the past couple seasons?  There has been a lot more snow lately and there are more predators, especially the coyote all reasons for a decline in the population along with aggressive harvest regulations put in place by the DNR.  Maybe it's time to put a small bounty back on the coyote to make it an incentive to get their populations back in check?

Also, how about the changes in habitat management in the state?  In the 70's and 80's there was a heck of a lumber and paper industry, not so much anymore and the forests are growing older without harvesting and dwindling food for wildlife.  More and more National Forest land and State land being bought and taken off the tax roles as well as all the tree hugger groups and political policies that prohibit harvesting a renewable resource.  And let's not also forget the amount of private land in the state and the owners that believe that the deer on their land are theirs and not the states deer.

There are much larger issues at the base of this discussion than just allowing crossbows to be used during the bow hunting season.

The best and the worst years of Wisconsin deer hunting have happened in the past 10 years for myself.

[fullrut]

In Wisconsin the Crossbow should be equivelent to the Firearm & Black Powder!
The archery and rifle hunts should remain about the same.
Get rid of the special hunts .
It is great that Wi. allows our youth to hunt at an early age. ( All the youth want is to hunt with the rest of the group during reg. seasons ! )
 

[Dan Salmon]

ORIGINAL: fullrut

In Wisconsin the Crossbow should be equivelent to the Firearm & Black Powder!
The archery and rifle hunts should remain about the same.
Get rid of the special hunts .
It is great that Wi. allows our youth to hunt at an early age. ( All the youth want is to hunt with the rest of the group during reg. seasons ! )

If you are going to go as far as saying a crossbow is a gun, then you certainly can't say that the current Inline Shotgun primer ignition Scoped firearms are muzzleloaders either, right?  The only thing missing is the brass cartridge that holds the powder and bullet otherwise they are completely the same, correct?

Why don't we just have a Primitive Weapons (Flint/Percussion Muzzleloaders & Long/Recurve Bows Only) season that runs three months (Sept., Oct. & Nov.) and a No Restrictions 9-Day Modern Deer Hunting Season (Any already legal method of take including Crossbows sometime in Dec.)?

There would be two types of tags, Primitive Weapon and Modern Weapon, no distinction other than those and the seasons you can hunt with them.  And hell, you might as well put a one buck a year per person rule on it too. 

It would sure simplify the rules and bring back the original purpose of the special primitive weapons hunts.  Separate longer hunts because of the added challenge of the equipment used. 

But this is just an idea coming from a crazy, bow hunter hating, DNR loving, Internet Troll so take it for what it's worth.

[fullrut]

Dan,
You have a chip on your shoulder .
Lets talk about Efective Range --& Disabled cross-bow hunters.
 
 
ORIGINAL: fullrut

In Wisconsin the Crossbow should be equivelent to the Firearm & Black Powder!
The archery and rifle hunts should remain about the same.
Get rid of the special hunts .
It is great that Wi. allows our youth to hunt at an early age. ( All the youth want is to hunt with the rest of the group during reg. seasons ! )

[Dan Salmon]

ORIGINAL: fullrut

Dan,
You have a chip on your shoulder .
Lets talk about Efective Range --& Disabled cross-bow hunters.


ORIGINAL: fullrut

In Wisconsin the Crossbow should be equivelent to the Firearm & Black Powder!
The archery and rifle hunts should remain about the same.
Get rid of the special hunts .
It is great that Wi. allows our youth to hunt at an early age. ( All the youth want is to hunt with the rest of the group during reg. seasons ! )

No chip.  Let's talk about effective range then.  I'll let you begin.

[fullrut]

Effective Range
 
You sound like you have read a lot of books.
You need to read everything from Fred Bear & Ted Nugent.