Ok, you're the Dr Kroll, now what?

bullwinkle
 
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Ok, you're the Dr Kroll, now what?

Postby bullwinkle » Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:09 pm

Wisconsin has some serious deer management issues. From my perspective they are:

1. Deer are not evenly dispersed within deer management units
2. Deer population is difficult to measure
3. Wolves and predators are growing in numbers
4. Reduced timber harvest in Northern Wisconsin is making the habitat less attractive to whitetails
5. CDW
6. Deer rules are controlled by Republican and Democrats not scientists.
7. Less land access - more private land
8. The average age of deer hunters is growing, less kids interested
9. More people are disgruntled with the deer population in Wisconsin than happy with it
10. There are still social issues with shooting does
11. People dont hunt like they used to. No more deer drives, more sanctuaries, more sitting, less pressure and more land development specifically for holding deer
12. QDM, TDM, etc affects deer harvest

You're Dr Kroll - what would you do? What's the solution?

Dan Salmon
 
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Re: Ok, you're the Dr Kroll, now what?

Postby Dan Salmon » Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:51 am

I don't honestly think there is one BIG solution to all the problems.

1. Deer are not evenly dispersed within deer management units - Don't know how you fix this. I honestly don't think you can.
2. Deer population is difficult to measure - This is statistical, there is no real way to count the population. I think they do a pretty good job of it already.
3. Wolves and predators are growing in numbers - Yes, they are. And they probably do affect the deer population and dispersal some, but I believe it is more a habitat driven dispersal.
4. Reduced timber harvest in Northern Wisconsin is making the habitat less attractive to whitetails - Habitat = Critters.
5. CWD - I think it's naturally occurring and we've finally found a way to detect it. Until it is shown to not cross to humans I think there still needs to be an effort to research and monitor it.
6. Deer rules are controlled by Republican and Democrats not scientists. - Short of a coup by the people, this isn't going to happen with the current rules in place in Congress. There needs to be term limits at both the State and Federal level, a politician was never meant to be a career.
7. Less land access - more private land - There is a lot of public land available in Wisconsin and in America. Is it the best, no. Why? Because we allow the anti's and environmentalists to use the courts to not allow us to manage these lands sustainably. They think they are protecting something that was never designed to be a static entity. It is always growing, degrading and regenerating. They are not allowing for the regeneration process and in are in effect creating the Endangered Species that they pretend to love so much.
8. The average age of deer hunters is growing, less kids interested - This is a trend that has grown from the change from an agrarian culture to an Urban culture. As people have moved from the country to the city, they have lost touch with their heritage and traditions.
9. More people are disgruntled with the deer population in Wisconsin than happy with it - If people would stop taking the attitude that they know better how to do something than the professionals do, this wouldn't be a problem. Will it happen? I doubt it. There will always be the person/people that know more than the doctors, engineers, etc.
10. There are still social issues with shooting does - See above
11. People dont hunt like they used to. No more deer drives, more sanctuaries, more sitting, less pressure and more land development specifically for holding deer - Thank the commercialization of hunting for this. It's nice to see that commercialization hasn't gotten to the level it has with deer and elk hunting for other species like pheasants. I enjoy pheasant hunting for the simple fact that there isn't a "trophy standard" in place for others to judge you success or lack of. You go out, work and in the end may get some birds or you may not, but your day isn't measured by the "puppy" you brought home.
12. QDM, TDM, etc affects deer harvest - It certainly does. It also shows the absolute and complete misunderstanding of statistics. Most people seem to think that they all have the next world record Whitetail roaming around on their 40. Statistics show you have a better chance of being hit by lightning, but still, he's there and if it weren't for the damn neighbor running the quad by me this morning, I'd be on the cover of Field & Stream!

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Jimbo
 
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Re: Ok, you're the Dr Kroll, now what?

Postby Jimbo » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:28 am

I think the whole idea of a "Deer Czar" is ridiculous. It's a waste of money. Wisconsin has turned to outside experts several other times, with no real positive result.

There have always been issues with the way Wisconsin counts deer. Access. Predation. Hunter attitudes. None of this is new.

What is different is that today, any stump sitter with an opinion and an internet connection, can make his opinion public. The volume has been turned up. That's all.

It's just my opinion, but these are the good old days. The 2011 archery season is 113 days long. Depending on where one hunts, most have multiple tags available.

I hunt a CWD zone near my home. Have shot a mature doe this year. Have passed on 3 bucks that were likely 2.5 year olds. Still plan on shooting a buck on this property. Maybe another doe.

I hunt the big woods in Washburn County. A good sit will result in 3 to 6 deer sightings. Some days perhaps no deer sighted. Heading up next week for a rut hunt. My chances of shooting a deer are very good.

I am one Wisconsin hunter that has no real complaint.

Good luck everyone.

Jimbo

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Jimbo
 
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Re: Ok, you're the Dr Kroll, now what?

Postby Jimbo » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:29 am

Dan Salmon wrote:I don't honestly think there is one BIG solution to all the problems.

1. Deer are not evenly dispersed within deer management units - Don't know how you fix this. I honestly don't think you can.
2. Deer population is difficult to measure - This is statistical, there is no real way to count the population. I think they do a pretty good job of it already.
3. Wolves and predators are growing in numbers - Yes, they are. And they probably do affect the deer population and dispersal some, but I believe it is more a habitat driven dispersal.
4. Reduced timber harvest in Northern Wisconsin is making the habitat less attractive to whitetails - Habitat = Critters.
5. CWD - I think it's naturally occurring and we've finally found a way to detect it. Until it is shown to not cross to humans I think there still needs to be an effort to research and monitor it.
6. Deer rules are controlled by Republican and Democrats not scientists. - Short of a coup by the people, this isn't going to happen with the current rules in place in Congress. There needs to be term limits at both the State and Federal level, a politician was never meant to be a career.
7. Less land access - more private land - There is a lot of public land available in Wisconsin and in America. Is it the best, no. Why? Because we allow the anti's and environmentalists to use the courts to not allow us to manage these lands sustainably. They think they are protecting something that was never designed to be a static entity. It is always growing, degrading and regenerating. They are not allowing for the regeneration process and in are in effect creating the Endangered Species that they pretend to love so much.
8. The average age of deer hunters is growing, less kids interested - This is a trend that has grown from the change from an agrarian culture to an Urban culture. As people have moved from the country to the city, they have lost touch with their heritage and traditions.
9. More people are disgruntled with the deer population in Wisconsin than happy with it - If people would stop taking the attitude that they know better how to do something than the professionals do, this wouldn't be a problem. Will it happen? I doubt it. There will always be the person/people that know more than the doctors, engineers, etc.
10. There are still social issues with shooting does - See above
11. People dont hunt like they used to. No more deer drives, more sanctuaries, more sitting, less pressure and more land development specifically for holding deer - Thank the commercialization of hunting for this. It's nice to see that commercialization hasn't gotten to the level it has with deer and elk hunting for other species like pheasants. I enjoy pheasant hunting for the simple fact that there isn't a "trophy standard" in place for others to judge you success or lack of. You go out, work and in the end may get some birds or you may not, but your day isn't measured by the "puppy" you brought home.
12. QDM, TDM, etc affects deer harvest - It certainly does. It also shows the absolute and complete misunderstanding of statistics. Most people seem to think that they all have the next world record Whitetail roaming around on their 40. Statistics show you have a better chance of being hit by lightning, but still, he's there and if it weren't for the damn neighbor running the quad by me this morning, I'd be on the cover of Field & Stream!


Great points. As usual, Dan, I find myself agreeing with everything you say.

Jimbo

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Rutnstrut
 
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Re: Ok, you're the Dr Kroll, now what?

Postby Rutnstrut » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:23 pm

" I think the whole idea of a "Deer Czar" is ridiculous. It's a waste of money. Wisconsin has turned to outside experts several other times, with no real positive result"

We can't really expect results when the politicians and the DNR refuse to heed the advice.

Dan Salmon
 
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Re: Ok, you're the Dr Kroll, now what?

Postby Dan Salmon » Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:56 pm

Here is another question that I have:

Why not offer what are currently the Bonus Antlerless tags as a separate General Antlerless tag at $12?

You would have the choice to purchase a General Archery/Firearms Buck Tag @ $24 ((2) Tags/Year like it is now) and/or General Archery/Firearms Antlerless Tag @ $12. You could continue to purchase Antlerless Tags @ $12 until the quota for the DMU you are hunting are sold out like current regulations allow.

This addresses issues from both sides of the fence.

    1. You would be offering, at a lesser cost, an alternative for those "meat hunters" out there to shoot Antlerless deer instead of small/young bucks by making the cost incurred less than it currently is.
    2. You would still allow everyone to purchase a Buck Tag ((1) Archery & (1) Firearm per year) at an additional cost ($24/Tag), just in case.
    3. You address the loss of EAB and widespread herd control by creating an incentive for "meat hunters" to shoot Antlerless deer.


I would also look at putting a penalty on unused crop damage tags for landowners. If they don't use the number of tags allotted to them by the DNR, based on a formula that would be dependent on the amount of crop damage claims they have made and total crop land holdings, they pay the cost of each unused tag ($18/Tag; splitting the difference between the (2) tag prices).

This would hopefully produce the following results:

    1. Open additional land to hunters.
    2. Get private land owners to shoot antlerless deer on their properties instead of running to public land in order to fill their tags. (This will probably not be as prevalent without EAB)
    3. Help to pay for the program that Landowners don't properly utilize and skim their losses off others that can't do anything about it or have no skin in the game to begin with. Which looks to be the best thing since Bernard Madoff.

Any comments?

Ostermann
 
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Re: Ok, you're the Dr Kroll, now what?

Postby Ostermann » Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:55 pm

I like the idea of a little bit more money for the anterless tags in "herd control" units. $2 is pretty cheap. Like I've said in other posts, maybe $5 or $10 would be good.

I think you have to remember that deer are free-ranging animals. Just because you own X amount of acres doesn't mean they are "your deer" to hunt. I own 20 acres bordering public land on a couple sides. Does that mean I have to shoot say 4 or 5 does before even thinking about a buck? My in-laws also have about 400 acres of farmland, mostly open for corn/soybeans/alfalfa. Does that mean I have to shoot 10-15 deer there?

I was born and raised that any deer is a trophy no matter what the size or sex it was. That was through the 70's and 80's. I think we are getting a little too spoiled with how big a buck is and trying to regulate what you can or can't shoot. I am fully aware of letting em go to let em grow. However, my Dad taught me that any deer shot is a trophy so respect the deer no matter what it is.

Dan Salmon
 
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Re: Ok, you're the Dr Kroll, now what?

Postby Dan Salmon » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:15 pm

That wasn't my point at all.

I'm looking at selling specific Anterless Tags (Like out West, you can apply for a Bull Elk Tag or you can apply for Cow Tags), not bonus tags you can buy after you buy your Buck Tag. In essence, if you are willing to shoot a Doe, you can hunt for $12 versus the $24 for a chance at a Buck. If you want a chance at both, you pay $36 like you would now.

As far as the Landowner portion, I was talking only of the Landowners that are getting Crop Damage Tags and Payments, not Landowners in general.

Ostermann
 
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Re: Ok, you're the Dr Kroll, now what?

Postby Ostermann » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:53 pm

I'm not fond of that idea. In the Western states is a little different than in WI.

I hunted a couple times in Montana and got the cheaper antlerless tag. My Dad, uncle, and I got some does for the freezer but it was a totally different style of hunting. More open land and you could drive, stop, glass and assess what is out there.

I for one wouldn't want to buy a license for a doe and have a buck standing in front of me. I want the choice of what I can harvest and I think that is important since some folks are not all trophy hunters. Big bucks are great but the antlers don't taste good no matter how you try to cook them. I have hunted public and private land. Sometimes good and sometimes bad but you always paid respect for the deer you got.

Dan Salmon
 
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Re: Ok, you're the Dr Kroll, now what?

Postby Dan Salmon » Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:54 pm

Then you are still no worse off than you are right now. That's the point. I'd be giving the option to those that would like the opportunity to lessen their costs and still bring home the venison to be the stewards that everyone claims to be. It would be interesting to see the numbers for a year anyway just to see how many put their money where their mouths are.

The more I'm thinking about this and seeing your responses, not a self professed trophy hunter, I'm understanding that anything short of EAB will not work because people don't want to be stewards. No matter what they tell you, they want to shoot the next world record, even though they have a better chance of getting hit by lightning or winning the lottery.

Thanks.

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