Shoot does or Leave em alone?

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Goose
 
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RE: Shoot does or Leave em alone?

Postby Goose » Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:08 am

Shaman good post, sounds like you do as much reading and learning as I do! The reason I bring this up is that a buddy I work with and talk hunting with is a major no doe shooting guy. Him, his dad and his brother have hunted on his dads land since kids and have always had the attitude of not shooting does. In fact Ive heard stories of his dad chewing out hunters at the registration station for shooting does! Its just kinda funny because they used to have some really good land with alot of understory and ample forage. Now after not shooting any does for the last 20 years they have no understory and hardly any trees to hang stands in and they wonder why. They still see alot of does but they arent staying on their land like they used to. Classic case in my opinion of over browsing and to many deer from a biological carrying cappacity stance. I think my buddy is starting to understand it through repetitive fun arguements but their mentality is still the same. They do get 2 and 1/2's during the rut but I feel it is not the right way to manage the land. But it is their land and their right. Just a interesting example in my opinion.
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djohns13
 
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RE: Shoot does or Leave em alone?

Postby djohns13 » Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:23 am

There are several good reasons to have a commitment to shooting does, both old and young.  First, a matriarch doe runs off her male offspring while letting the females join the herd.  If you want your young bucks heading to someone else's hunting grounds, let her walk.  Second, with less mature females on land with the same overall carrying capacity, birth rates will rapidly change from singles and twins to twins and triplets.  The more multiple births, the greater the chance of a buck being born.  Third, taking both mature and young does keeps the age spread consistently wide, which means that your hunting grounds have does that will go into estrus at different times.  That means a longer rut period (or multiple rut periods if you prefer to label it that way) for your hunting pleasure.  Finally, fewer does means more buck movement and competition with other bucks for the remaining does.  Greater likelihood of seeing one plus generally higher success at rattling and grunting.  Just my thoughts.
 
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Glad to talk to all of you, but I'd rather be sitting in a tree stand on a cool morning trying not to move so that the bruiser buck directly below me doesn't figure out that I am watching him!

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howhill1
 
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RE: Shoot does or Leave em alone?

Postby howhill1 » Tue Sep 09, 2008 1:55 pm

excellent posts by all. i think we can safely say that a certain amount of doe kills are essential to herd balance and health. however every herd is different. taking the time to scout and evaluate your herd your property as well as trying to educate yourself as best you can in sound biological approaches is nessecary in achieving this goal.
"please join the N.R.A. as well as your state rifle association! these are critical times for ALL gun owners. Be informed, be active and stay vigilant"

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JPH
 
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RE: Shoot does or Leave em alone?

Postby JPH » Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:53 pm

Well said howhill1. There is no "one size fits all" QDM.

charger295
 
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RE: Shoot does or Leave em alone?

Postby charger295 » Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:41 pm

Just to add my 2 cents...  I agree that some does need to be killed periodically for the good of the herd and as was stated, there's no "one size fits all" theory or equation.  In addition to all the reasons given above for taking does, another simple one is that regardless of the geographic area or terrain...an acre of ground can only support a certain number of animals (bucks or does)...and the does are eating, too.
 
 

danesdad
 
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RE: Shoot does or Leave em alone?

Postby danesdad » Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:32 pm

I personally will shoot a doe when the opportunity presents itself, but I'm little threat to the deer population.  I dont own any land to speak of, so it's not really an issue for me (not shooting does).

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FlDeerman
 
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RE: Shoot does or Leave em alone?

Postby FlDeerman » Wed Sep 10, 2008 7:31 pm

I hunt my cousin's land and we've found every year we have a good doe harvest we see more bucks.Florida does have a large state herd.

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EatDeer
 
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RE: Shoot does or Leave em alone?

Postby EatDeer » Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:55 pm

ORIGINAL: djohns13

 Second, with less mature females on land with the same overall carrying capacity, birth rates will rapidly change from singles and twins to twins and triplets.  The more multiple births, the greater the chance of a buck being born. 


You made some good points, but I have been under the impression that the older doe's are the deer producing triplets more often.  I also believe that the fawns of younger doe's have a much harder time eludeing predators, without a older doe as a mother.      
"Let a young buck go, so he can grow."

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JPH
 
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RE: Shoot does or Leave em alone?

Postby JPH » Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:17 am

ORIGINAL: EatDeer

ORIGINAL: djohns13

Second, with less mature females on land with the same overall carrying capacity, birth rates will rapidly change from singles and twins to twins and triplets.  The more multiple births, the greater the chance of a buck being born. 


You made some good points, but I have been under the impression that the older doe's are the deer producing triplets more often.  I also believe that the fawns of younger doe's have a much harder time eludeing predators, without a older doe as a mother.      

 
I have also read that the loss of a matriarch (sp?) doe can disrupt the social structure of a local herd.

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shaman
 
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RE: Shoot does or Leave em alone?

Postby shaman » Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:41 am

If I remember correctly, D&DH had an article in the past year that advocates shooting sub-dominant does and leaving the matriarchs. 

All I can say for sure is that I've shot the lead doe once, back in 2004. She was a biggun too-- went 170 lbs live weight.  After that, that doe group altered its patterns tremendously.  This year is the first time I'm seeing intense sign around the stand where I took her.

On the other hand, I've got a stand about 500 yards away that sees us taking 2 deer a year like clockwork, but so far we've only taken bucks and small doe from it. 

I don't mean to say that killing a matriarch will queer a stand quicker than other deer.  What I am saying is that in this one case regular sightings of an established herd ceased after I shot the lead doe, and overall sign went down significantly.   Scrapes that had been active for multiple seasons went unused. Rub lines ended.  Visits to the salt lick went way down.  Now, 4 seasons later, I'm picking up all sorts of sign again, and deer are using the same paths that were worn deeply up until 2004. 
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