Sorry I missed out on the locked 2A thread!!!

What's the hunt looking like this year in your area? Share!
xmatax
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:30 am
Location: NW PA

Re: Sorry I missed out on the locked 2A thread!!!

Postby xmatax » Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:46 pm

JPH wrote:There are some excellent points being made here and I appreciate the conversation. Be that as it may, no one has addressed the question that brought me into this thread.

What is the necessary level of armament needed for an individual to maintain a reasonable ability to defend oneself and sereve as member of the militia in modern America and what level of armament represents a danger?


Let's be fair...I don't think there is a "right" answer to that question. While 1 person may say one thing, another person might say something completely different and neither is right or wrong...unless of course there is a law to explicity lay out what is legal and what isn't (Which is where I believe you're trying to go with it). I personally think it should be left up to the individual as to what level of armament is necessary unless they themselves, beyond reasonable doubt, have raised a suspicision to warrant the restriction of said armament(s).

User avatar
Big Horse
 
Posts: 269
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:53 pm

Re: Sorry I missed out on the locked 2A thread!!!

Postby Big Horse » Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:08 pm

xmatax wrote:I personally think it should be left up to the individual as to what level of armament is necessary unless they themselves, beyond reasonable doubt, have raised a suspicision to warrant the restriction of said armament(s).


Due Process.

I touched on that here...
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=38980
Live to Hunt, Hunt to Live.

User avatar
JPH
 
Posts: 3419
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:28 am

Re: Sorry I missed out on the locked 2A thread!!!

Postby JPH » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:05 am

Big Horse, you are tilting with a windmill here. I am not an advocate of banning any currently legal firearms and you entirely missed my points about the certain members of the pro-gun camp.

The logic presented by left-wing gun control advocates is flawed, but I do not see any value in fighting flawed logic with more flawed logic. We have posters saying we need to armed to the level of federal agencies (see: Branch Davidians?) but not to the level of the military because they are not supposed to be used domestically. Say what? Why is that the arbitrary line in the sand? All these imagined threats make my head hurt.

Here is a real threat. Suicidal loners, raised on violence in the media and video games, with hearts full of pain and hate and armed to the teeth with devastating firepower are becoming a growing phenomenon. This is not like the black helicopters of peoples imagination. This is real! My point all along has been that while the issue is much deeper than gun laws, we as gun owners should take a serious look at our role in this and how we might be able to reduce the bleeding in our society. I believe that if we could do this, our answer would be much more effective than the "solutions" brought forward by the opponents of gun ownership. If that opinion makes enemies for me (it has), so be it.

What more is there to say?

User avatar
Woods Walker
 
Posts: 4898
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:21 am
Location: Northern Illinois

Re: Sorry I missed out on the locked 2A thread!!!

Postby Woods Walker » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:54 am

OK then J'per, then what is our role specifically?
Hunt Hard,

Kill Swiftly,

Waste Nothing,

Offer No Apologies.....

>>>--------------------------------->
NRA Endowment Life Member

User avatar
JPH
 
Posts: 3419
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:28 am

Re: Sorry I missed out on the locked 2A thread!!!

Postby JPH » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:32 am

Woods Walker wrote:OK then J'per, then what is our role specifically?


Well I have to begin with two disclaimers. One, I remind you that my opinions are just that. Take them with a grain of salt. Two, I am of the belief that there is a deep wound in this nation and it will not be solved by laws or regulations. I believe that it is a spiritual issue and it requires a spiritual solution. Discussions about laws and regulations are important but they simply address a symptom and not the disease.

I believe that gun owners must move beyond the tired slogans of the NRA and the mantra that we've been repeating for decades. I believe the mass shooting phenomenon calls for an honest look at the role of the guns and of the militia. I wish that we could somehow revive the militia and properly regulate it in the manner of the Swiss or the Israelis. Unfortunately, I fear that we are a long, long way from that. I feel the militia is currently able to do little more than make small, individual defensive stands against crime. I am of the opinion that the ability to lay down sustained, suppressive fire has proven to be virtually worthless in the hands of today's militia, but quite useful in the hands of mass killers.

I will admit that my time in an Army combat arms unit was brief, but I did learn that coordination is far more useful than high magazine capacity. I think the militia should embrace a strictly enforced, retroactive, magazine capacity limitation and then universal background checks, education and training that enhances our ability as lawful, responsible gun owners to respond to threats in a coordinated manner. We do not need 100 drums in my opinion, we need cooperative pockets of smart, effective gun owners.

Now again, these are my ideas. I openly accept that they may be flawed, but at least they are independent and creative. If more of us would spitball fresh solutions to this question, rather than digging in deeper to our old positions, I think we could be safer and stronger. I do not fear free thinking.

xmatax
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:30 am
Location: NW PA

Re: Sorry I missed out on the locked 2A thread!!!

Postby xmatax » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:53 am

JPH wrote:Big Horse, you are tilting with a windmill here. I am not an advocate of banning any currently legal firearms and you entirely missed my points about the certain members of the pro-gun camp.

The logic presented by left-wing gun control advocates is flawed, but I do not see any value in fighting flawed logic with more flawed logic. We have posters saying we need to armed to the level of federal agencies (see: Branch Davidians?) but not to the level of the military because they are not supposed to be used domestically. Say what? Why is that the arbitrary line in the sand? All these imagined threats make my head hurt.

Here is a real threat. Suicidal loners, raised on violence in the media and video games, with hearts full of pain and hate and armed to the teeth with devastating firepower are becoming a growing phenomenon. This is not like the black helicopters of peoples imagination. This is real! My point all along has been that while the issue is much deeper than gun laws, we as gun owners should take a serious look at our role in this and how we might be able to reduce the bleeding in our society. I believe that if we could do this, our answer would be much more effective than the "solutions" brought forward by the opponents of gun ownership. If that opinion makes enemies for me (it has), so be it.

What more is there to say?


The only part I must disagree with is the "raised on violence in the media and video games" portion of the argument. The media portrayed "rap music" as a source of this evil in the early 90's. As a result the music industry was then forced to "rate" all of their music with huge logo's saying there were explicit lyrics or controversial lyrics. After that failed to decrease gun violence the media turned to Goths and Marilyn Manson type music and protests all over the US trying to ban his music and concerts took place because it was "troubling our youth". We have re-done all of the cartoons by Warner Brother because people hit themselves, smoke cigarettes, cigars, drink out of bottles marked with "xxx" to eliminate such things and have gone so far as to replace them with more "educational" TV shows. Shows that then received scrutiny because the teletubbies were "homosexuals" and it would turn their children into such. If restrictions placed on any or all of the above which were believed to be the "cause" of why people would do such horrible things haven't made a difference why should we cave in on any level as it relates to guns until it can be proven? Shouldn't all of these things be repealed and put in their original formats because obviously the ideas didn't work?

The greatest influence in my opinion is the people we surround ourselves by followed by the de-sensitizing of our youth. Is it a perfect system absolutely not, because we all have different ideals and place some morals above others. If generations much older than us didn't have nearly as many of the mass tragedies as we experience today, perhaps video games, violent cartoons, and the media are not the problem.

I agree with you 100% that there is a hate between fellow humans which is brewing more and more tragedies (or at least they are portrayed as happening with more frequency by the media). Whether you say it's related to religion or lack there of or I give a scientific explanation to back up my claim we are on the same page in saying it's a "hate or evil", we're just walking different roads to the same destination.

In summation I do not want ANY of my (or your) gun rights infringed upon until my government can come out with hard evidence that points to the contrary and to this point they haven't, it's all speculation. I think the people who have spoken out about "do not take away a right because it COULD HAVE a positive effect" are concerned and rightly so as history proves. Once you take away or amend that original right there is almost no way to repeal it whether it works or not.

As I stated before, you should be able to own any type/amount of gun, armament, bomb, grenade, RPG, SMG, etc. that you so choose, so long as there is no legitimate reason to say otherwise. To limit the types, amounts, rounds, etc. based on speculation or "for my own protection" is not a valid argument which is what the government is trying to get us to believe through mass hysteria.

User avatar
rthomas4
 
Posts: 592
Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:07 pm
Location: Hampton, SC

Re: Sorry I missed out on the locked 2A thread!!!

Postby rthomas4 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:55 am

I don't believe the Branch Davidians had any tanks, aircraft, ships, or even rocket launchers. Of course, we'll never know for sure, since Reno made sure to blow the compound up and kill a bunch of innocent people before she could prove any illegal gun ownership.

As for my comments, I said if the military uses it's armaments domestically, then we should have access to the same fire power. As long as the military is using it's arsenal for the protection of our country, against foreign governments and terrorist organizations then no problem. If, they turn against US citizens, then the game changes.

Considering that no militia groups have been involved in any of the mass murders, there is no reason to reevaluate the role of private gun ownership. You also have to consider the political affiliations of the most recent crop of mass murderers; and then consider the possibility that these are misguided individuals who are so rabidly anti-gun, that they are willing to commit these atrocities, and surrender their lives in a misguided effort to create the current debate and elevate the situation. A spiritual solution sounds more tired than the slogans and mantra of the NRA. After all, more people have been murdered, sacrificed, and mistreated under the guise of religion than any other ideology in the history of mankind. I'm certain that the Muslim terrorists truly believe that their religion requires them to pursue Jihad against Christians and Jews, just as the Catholic Church once practiced the same type of attacks during the Crusades. Rather than interject religion into the debate, why not call for actual judicial action against criminals, especially capital punishment for murderers and rapists as well as the repeat offenders who are constantly receiving lenient and often ridiculously inappropriate sentences! How about actually locking up mentally unstable psychopaths, instead of letting them walk freely among the population. Enforcement of the 22,000+ existing gun laws might actually prove to be effective, instead of proposing more onerous gun laws!
NRA LM, NAHC LM, Buckmasters LM, The Second Amendment Foundation, GOA, NAGR, Palmetto Gun Rights, QDMA, DU, NWTF, ASAdisabled sportsmens' alliance, EDH, and Proud SC redneck REBEL for life.

User avatar
JPH
 
Posts: 3419
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:28 am

Re: Sorry I missed out on the locked 2A thread!!!

Postby JPH » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:11 am

xmatax wrote:The greatest influence in my opinion is the people we surround ourselves by followed by the de-sensitizing of our youth. Is it a perfect system absolutely not, because we all have different ideals and place some morals above others. If generations much older than us didn't have nearly as many of the mass tragedies as we experience today, perhaps video games, violent cartoons, and the media are not the problem.

A lot of good points in your post xmatax, allow me to narrow my reply to the area quoted.

I agree that our family and friends have a far greater influence than entertainment. My kids play Grand Theft Auto and they are great kids. But my kids have good people in their life who help them to balance entertainment with real life. What about the shut-ins without the blessings of family and friends? What role does entertainment play in the lives of the unbalanced? Ted Bundy claimed that his murderous rampage was touched off by exposure to pornography. Most of us have been exposed to porn and we have managed to deal with it, but it does not mean that it is good for anyone.

How do we address the role of violent and pornographic entertainment in these types of tragedies? I don't know and I don't know that this is the place for proper exploration of that question. I simply hold that they are factors. I do think this is the right place to discuss guns because we have a common bond or experience and knowledge regarding them.

User avatar
JPH
 
Posts: 3419
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:28 am

Re: Sorry I missed out on the locked 2A thread!!!

Postby JPH » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:24 am

rthomas4, I'd love to engage you in conversation, I really would, but your view of history and reality is so drastically set apart from mine that there is no point. In order to address you I'd have to pick apart what I see as your historical inaccuracies (4 in your last post, by my count) and holes in your plot line (too many to count). Nobody needs to sit through any more of that.

xmatax
 
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:30 am
Location: NW PA

Re: Sorry I missed out on the locked 2A thread!!!

Postby xmatax » Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:18 am

JPH...I think we are on the same page in that...

What can we do as individuals to help nurture society outside of more rules/regulations on firearms to prevent honest people from a true freedom.

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 6 guests