wisconsin crossbow federation is gaining steam

hot tamale
 
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Re: wisconsin crossbow federation is gaining steam

Postby hot tamale » Sun Mar 31, 2013 8:10 pm

Mr Bullwinkle,

You couldn't be more wrong. I have planted crops for well over 30 years. The very fact you call them food plots makes them bait piles. OK OK enough already.
My point of the bait pile food plot or whatever anyone wants to categorize them as makes no difference to me.
The outcome is that they are intended to feed the animals and for us to harvest them going to and from them, in them, around them, etc. They draw the deer in as they normally wouldn't be there otherwise.

I wont keep on with this food plot thing as the point of this posting was about the crossbow organization gaining steam, not what food plots are and who uses them.
Once again, I think everyone should have their choice and freedoms to choose whatever weapon they want for hunting as long as it is legal and in a safe and ethical manner.
Lets stay on topic here please! :roll:

bullwinkle
 
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Re: wisconsin crossbow federation is gaining steam

Postby bullwinkle » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:08 am

I guess I am not writing well enough to express my poiint. Let try again. Baiting and crossbows are tied together - Here is what your do

You put corn out. Build a stand where you have a shooting rail. Deer comes in and it is fish in the barrel. Not to sporting - I've done it. Easy. Very little effort. Bowhunting over bait is just one step more difficult - drawing back and the practice required to get good.

Food plots. I put in about 2 hours/acre of work. When I hunt, the deer are not standing in one place. A crossbow hunter would have to swing on the deer making it more of a challenge. Getting away with the movement, stopping the deer, etc

Baiting and crossbows are tied together in my mind

If you've planted crops for 30 years sounds you're a farmer. I am surprised, you're the first farmer I know who doesn't support planting to make the environment better. Most farmers see their role as stewards of the land. I will still put my paycheck up against yours that DMAP will support food plotters because it helps wildlife. A pile of corn doesnt

hot tamale
 
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Re: wisconsin crossbow federation is gaining steam

Postby hot tamale » Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:26 am

I have no qualms that the roles are to help the environment.
the crossbow and compound thing though still "irks" me.
you cant hold a crossbow horizontal for very long as the weight will start to get to you. there is movement. You can shoot a deer with a compound over a bait pile just as easily.
I will not concede this as I have shot with a compound for many years and have seen it done several times.

I will concede that a crossbow is easier to adapt to as it does not take hours and hours of practice to become efficient for a clean and ethical kill shot.
so with that in mind, wouldn't true stewards of the land want the "newbies" taking clean and ethical kill shots and not getting bad shots on deer and possibly wound them or make them suffer?
They show it all the time in many of the outdoor shows. bad shots, high shots, through the stomache having to wait until the next morning to trail because of the bad shot.
If crossbows limit the number of bad shots, i am all for it.

back to work again for this kid.

bullwinkle
 
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Re: wisconsin crossbow federation is gaining steam

Postby bullwinkle » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:15 pm

My neighbor hunts with a crossbow over bait - get a shooting rail on your tree stand. He can hold it all day

You are right on the ethical kills. Crossbow shoot just like a rifle.

Dan Salmon
 
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Re: wisconsin crossbow federation is gaining steam

Postby Dan Salmon » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:17 pm

Neither of you are making a good point for or against bait with any weapon.

Anything that stops an animal unnaturally, a food plot or corn pile in the middle of otherwise unbroken woods for example, would be an advantage, or baiting, in my mind.

Doesn't matter what weapon is used, gun, bow, crossbow, slingshot, rock, etc.

Dan Salmon
 
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Re: wisconsin crossbow federation is gaining steam

Postby Dan Salmon » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:22 pm

bullwinkle wrote:I guess I am not writing well enough to express my poiint. Let try again. Baiting and crossbows are tied together - Here is what your do

You put corn out. Build a stand where you have a shooting rail. Deer comes in and it is fish in the barrel. Not to sporting - I've done it. Easy. Very little effort. Bowhunting over bait is just one step more difficult - drawing back and the practice required to get good.

Food plots. I put in about 2 hours/acre of work. When I hunt, the deer are not standing in one place. A crossbow hunter would have to swing on the deer making it more of a challenge. Getting away with the movement, stopping the deer, etc

Baiting and crossbows are tied together in my mind

If you've planted crops for 30 years sounds you're a farmer. I am surprised, you're the first farmer I know who doesn't support planting to make the environment better. Most farmers see their role as stewards of the land. I will still put my paycheck up against yours that DMAP will support food plotters because it helps wildlife. A pile of corn doesnt


I don't think you are going to find a bias toward food plotting with DMAP as you are going to see more micro-population management. Again, I believe there are too many competing interests in this state (Small landholdings) to allow DMAP to have any real success. We'll see how it's developed, but I believe that it's going to be more population management than it will be stressed to be QDM. The DNR still can't make people shoot does and protect big bucks and landowners certainly won't allow it to be the case if they are paying a fee to be part of DMAP.

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kellory
 
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Re: wisconsin crossbow federation is gaining steam

Postby kellory » Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:39 pm

bullwinkle wrote:My neighbor hunts with a crossbow over bait - get a shooting rail on your tree stand. He can hold it all day

[color=#FF0000]You are right on the ethical kills. Crossbow shoot just like a rifle.[/color]


I have tried to stay out of this discussion, because I do hunt crossbow, and baiting is legal here. It is your state you are discussing, not mine, but a crossbow does NOT fire as a rifle, nor does it act like one. it is, by it's physics, and the limits of the material, a bow. Not a firearm. The trigger mechanism is completely different, in fact the only thing the two types have in common is the trigger itself, which is designed for the function, so it is "trigger "shaped.

the resemblance to firearms is backwards. It is long guns that resemble crossbows, not the other way around. crossbows were here long before gunpowder. (As long as 400BC), and the shape of long guns derives from what they learned from crossbows.

the ballistics of a crossbow bolt, and and arrow, are roughly equal. The bolt is heavier, and hits with more follow through, but a good compound, and an average crossbow will shoot the same distances. within i few yards. many compounds will out distance the effective range of a crossbow. there are a few high dollar crossbows that will out perform the standard, that is true, but they are NOT the normal hunting crossbow. (there is one that is based on the stock of an AR-15)

I hunt with a crossbow BECAUSE it is more ethical, not less. Because, it make the one shot I get, More lethal, as the follow through will blow two clear holes instead of one plugged with an arrow. My blood trails are short, and obvious. It is the equivalent of being hit by a truck moving 60mph, or a motorcycle moving 60mph, the follow through is the only real difference.

With a bow, there is often a chance of a second shot, not so with a crossbow. My shot is noisy, and the gyrations required to recock the average crossbow, will guarantee, no second shot. and while there a couple of self cockers on the market, they are not the norm, due to the cost.

And as to setting up over a big grain pile, there are a couple of problems with that. First the cost, corn is not cheap, we are up to $10.00 per 40# bag here, and a large pile would be likely be what? 10 bags, that is $100. just for a lure. and most of that will be eaten at night. And once you are busted, you are busted, and it goes to waste. Move it? even MORE of your scent on now, and even less effective. Most guys never move a grain pile for that reason. And if it doesn't move, it is NO DIFFERENT than a food plot. It is food, planted for the sole reason, of luring, and feeding animals.

I have never found it to be very effective to set up over food anyways. I will hunt the approaches and the funnels leading to it, and between bedding, food, and water. where the deer travel, because the bigger deer, will not come to a pile during daylight anyways. only the younger, and smaller deer do (mainly) or the incredibly stupid deer. (of which there aren't many) There is NO STATISTICAL DIFFERENCE here in Ohio, between deer taken with bait, and deer taken without bait. It is just another tool to try. No different than rattling, or scent lures, it is used to try to draw deer close.

There are many ways to hunt, and I intend to try them all before I die. with one exception. (I will not hunt inside a cage) Others will, and that is their choice, as long as it is legal where they are, but it is not for me. As long as it is legal, every choice should be allowed for every person, regardless of age, or infirmary, because your choice of weapon, is as personal as your underwear. and no one else's business. As our season progresses, here (Ohio) we simple add choices to what weapon you choice to use. we start with bow (all bows, including crossbow) and add guns during gun season.(If you choose to use a bow, or a gun, no one cares) There are no conflicts, no problems of any kind, with this arrangement. You simply list what kind of weapon was used when you register the deer with ODNR.

Now, don't tell me a crossbow is a rifle, there is no comparison.
Don't tell me a crossbow requires no skill or stealth, I know better better, all woodscraft is the same as a bow.
Don't tell me that deer flock to grain piles like metal filling to a magnet, because that simply is not so.
Don't tell me there is some great advantage over a bow, because there is not, other than it is stored power over power on demand. but since I never even move (with a bow) until I have a shot, that advantage is nil.
Is there an advantage in using a shooting rail, that is possible, but as a horizontal bow in a vertical world, it is more likely to be busted, because it looks wrong. and the more horizontal, (shooting rail) the more to get busted by.

I will get only one shot, but the one shot I will get, is the more ethical shot. with a quicker kill, and a surer bloodtrail.. But that is all AFTER the shot. All the woods craft is the same, the prep is the same, the range is the same (give or take a few yards) and the hunter is the same. i still hunt with a bow, when stalking, or hunting light. But I know, that the better tool for the job, is a crossbow, in a fixed position, and the better mobile weapon is the Bow, due to the weight of a crossbow.
The only real difference between a good tracker and a bad tracker is observation. All the same data is present for both. The rest is understanding what you are seeing.

bullwinkle
 
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Re: wisconsin crossbow federation is gaining steam

Postby bullwinkle » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:52 am

Kellroy - you make some good points but I completely disagree with you regarding crossbows not being like rifles

I practice my bow almost every week to stay proficient. In 3D tourney, I am normally in the top 3. Pretty decent shot for an old guy. I have shot a crossbow twice. I outshot my bow!!!! With little practice they are very easy to shoot - just like a rifle. I agree on the range and the one shot but don't think this is the same challenge as bowhunting

I have the ultimate respect for long bows and recurves - they are a serious step up from compounds

If it is just about killing deer. He is a very easy way:

Build a stand with a shooting rail 18-20 yards from your bait. Put the stand in a pine tree with very small shooting lanes to protect your cover. Make sure you think through wind direction and where the deer will approach from

Put the bait up against a back drop so they have to face away from you

Put out enough corn to be eaten everyday. Whether is is 1 gallon or two, try to make them want to come first. Time it in the middle of the day so they move early. Add a little molassas if you want to make it real attractive. Molassas is cheap

There is the recipe. You can have your tag filled opening weekend. Trust me, I did when I was young - I killed things but it wasn't really a challenge or much of a sport. I am not too proud of it to be honest

Please don't compare food plotting to baiting. It would take me a book to write down what I do now for my hunting experience, habitate development and deer hunting.

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Deebz
 
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Re: wisconsin crossbow federation is gaining steam

Postby Deebz » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:46 am

Bullwinkle... It seems to me that your only argument against crossbows is that using a crossbow to hunt isn't as challenging as using vertical bows. My wife uses a crossbow with a scope, and I can agree that it is quite easy to make a good shot.

However, who is to say that hunting has to be challenging? You ovbiously hunt for the enjoyment and the challenge and whatever other personal reasons you have. Not everybody else has the same motivations in taking to the woods. What about the people who rely on killing 3-4 deer per year so that they can have meat? Is it fair to restrict their ablility to do this with ease?

There was a thread here awhile back about the stages that we as hunters go through. I myself am sort of progressing towards being happy to let smaller bucks walk. My uncle, however, shoots anything with a body big enough to make it worth the effort to fill his freezer. They don't buy beef from the store.

I don't see the problem in letting someone else use a crossbow. I can still hunt the way that I want to regardless.
"When a hunter is in a tree stand with high moral values and with the proper hunting ethics and richer for the experience, that hunter is 20 feet closer to God." ~Fred Bear

bullwinkle
 
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Re: wisconsin crossbow federation is gaining steam

Postby bullwinkle » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:47 am

Deebz - I think your right. I really don't mind the crossbows. My interest is selfish and around my neighbors. They already shoot any deer with antlers. Baiting and crossbows are just a recipe for easily filling tags and less 2.5 years old in the neighborhood. If they shot does, I would be jumping up and down for crossbows.

That my bottom line. Baiting is about killing - that is why you never see articles or tv shows about how to effectly bait. I just read an anti-NRA article today about how 80% of bears in Maine are shot over bait and how this isn't sporting.

Sorry about venting. Baiting will be gone soon in WI with CWD.

Bowhunting is an awesome sport that levels the playing field with deer. I will stick with my Matthews and food plots.

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