Shot Placement

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shaman
 
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RE: Shot Placement

Postby shaman » Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:41 am

Sorry I missed this before.  What are the plusses on the side of a non-saboted  round? 

Mass:  The sabot round has a plastic sabot or shoe that falls away. This makes for a lighter load that can travel at higher velocity. The heavier mass of the normal shotgun slug is great for close-in work, but the velocity falls off more rapidly than a sabot round, because there is more frontal area.

Expansion:  Let's assume we have the projectiles made of the same material. A normal shotgun slug has more material in it. Therefore it can expand more. The non-sabot round also has a larger frontal area. Even if it does no expansion whatsoever, it will be a sizable chunk of alloy burrowing through the deer.  The last time I recovered a lead slug from a deer it was from a 54 CAL muzzleloader  it was flattened out on the inside of the hide  on the far side.  It was a pancake.  Imagine that only larger-- imagine that when you think about a 12 GA Remmie Slugger going through a deer at 50 yards.

Conventional-to-Sabot is a trade of mass for velocity. Since gravity is pulling your bullet down with equal force, it is going to hit the ground at the roughly the same time as a lead ball dropped from your hand. By increasing velocity, you increase range and decrease hold-over.

Conventional-to-Sabot is also a trade that produces less frontal area .  That results in a bullet that has less friction and therefore higher velocity when it reaches the target.


By the way, let me way in on frontal shots while I'm here.  First off, I have successfully taken a brisket shot on a buck with a bow.  It was at 5 yards. At that range I probably could have put it in at the base of his tail and had it come out his nostrils (not a shot I endorse).  My point is this: in close, just about anything goes, but I'm talking REALLY close. 

Don't think I mean head or neck shots with a bow.  These move quickly, quicker than the rest of the body.  That's why the football coach always tells you to watch the center of the opponents body. Head fakes are easy to pull off. Body fakes aren't. The same is true for deer hunting.  I had another shot many years ago that turned into a brisket shot.  Again, it was wildly and nearly instantly successful. Again, it miraculously did not involve guts. I was lined up for a perfect broadside shot at 15 yards and the durn deer nearly flipped himself towards me as I released-- caught him dead center in the chest.  What saved this from being a ick-a-thon was I was in an elevated treestand and after taking out heart and lung, the arrow emerged from the body just behind the ribcage.

The same thing applies with a firearm. I am the sad perpetrator of an inadvertent  Texas Heart Shot on a doe with a 30-06. The good things I can say about it is that it was an instant success and surprisingly I had no involvement of any intestines.  That is a miracle I am still trying to grasp. It's a long story when you get together with JPG and me, he can tell you how he strangled a turkey. I'll tell you about the doe.  

My point regarding firearms is this:  at 20 yards a brisket shot with a buck is fine. You just need to have some sort of an angle so it does not keep going through the guts. Otherwise you'll have a dead deer and  smelly mess. I have no experience beyond this, but I would advise caution as distance increases.
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msbadger
 
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RE: Shot Placement

Postby msbadger » Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:00 am

The reason is actually quite simple. Bullets/slugs (for the most part) kill deer via tissue trauma, spread over a reasonably large area. A high velocity round will break bones and send a shock wave through the tissues disrupting their function even if they do not come into contact with the bullet. ]
 
How true I shot a doe one year ...30yrds(Bow stand so know yrds) with a 20ga. breneke slug...tipped her over ...then she got up and walked away...long/short ...no other shot option ...watched her walk away and 200yrds away she dropped...no blood trail and couldnt find a hole any where in her...there was none....her liver had a small hole ...she bled out....found slug with plastic wading attached in her hide....never even made it all the way through hide and the punch still killed her...may never would have figured it out but while skinning her I found where it had  hit her elbow and broken the tip of it so I started feeling around in the hide near break...All we can figure was some how powder got damp or they never put enough powder in at factory and it made it through QC

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JPH
 
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RE: Shot Placement

Postby JPH » Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:48 pm

ORIGINAL: shaman

By the way, let me way in on frontal shots while I'm here.  First off, I have successfully taken a brisket shot on a buck with a bow.  It was at 5 yards. At that range I probably could have put it in at the base of his tail and had it come out his nostrils (not a shot I endorse).  My point is this: in close, just about anything goes, but I'm talking REALLY close. 



Gotta differ with you on this one bro. In the words of Chris Rock, "You can drive a car with your feet, but that don't make it a good @$%* idea!"

I do not care if you are just far enough for the arrow to clear the bow, quartering toward shots are a BAD idea with archery tackle.

I know guys who have gotten away with it, but I know more who have come to regret it.

DoeEyed
 
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RE: Shot Placement

Postby DoeEyed » Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:26 pm

When I started hunting I started with a bow, so I was taught to aim right behind the shoulder for the heart/lungs and I carried that over into gun hunting without question. I have tried the shoulder shot and found that it ruins alot of meat. Not to mention biting a piece of lead is not pleasant. I have no need to drop a deer in it's tracks as recovering deer from my neighbor's propery has never been an issue & I don't mind the blood trailing either cuz I usually have plenty of help. So my personal preference is aiming for the vitals every time.

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cva54
 
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RE: Shot Placement

Postby cva54 » Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:58 am

boy U got me going I HAVE taken deer with  a 54cal cap and ball YES BALL 1 head shot 45 Y blew the top of its head off the only reason was it was the only shure shot 4 more in the sholder had to trash at least 5 front 1/4s with HP rifle 1 with mod 94 lucky shot 110Y 1/4ing away hit it right in front of rear 1/4 what a mess long track 2 came out of chest the last 2 deer I got 30.06 perfick hart shot my bow dubble lung so it all depends what U are using with a gun (big cal) it dont matter nowonder the civle war was the bloodyest H.P. how mutch meat do U want to waste a BOW it better be a lung or 2. Shot placement is every thing like patriot said AIM SMALL MISS SMALL i was going to use that but U beat me to it great movie in the pic that is going in

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JPH
 
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RE: Shot Placement

Postby JPH » Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:55 am

cva54, I'm having a little trouble following your post. Are you saying that shot placement does not matter if you are shooting a HP rifle?

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cva54
 
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RE: Shot Placement

Postby cva54 » Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:54 pm

sorry me and a key borad dont get along to good. No thats what I mean. What Iam saying a 54cal is a meat grinder! A H.P. with a skilled shooter will drop it in it tracks and not hurt any meat. With a bow you better be able to keep your kool and place that arrow were it needs to be when that time comes! Shot placement is the most inportant just some weapons do more damage than others iam a meat hunter

coach
 
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RE: Shot Placement

Postby coach » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:42 pm

I'm not sure I agree 100%.  A shoulder shot with a gun...riffle ...whatever....you will ruin some meat
in that area regardless of what you use. 
 
We butcher our own deer.  We have 30-30 up to 300 Win. Mag.  The most meat is in the rear end anyways.  You shoot shoulder....its called ...Hamburg Time.  It still meat.
Now you might get the blood jello if you don't clean it right away. And you still get fracture tiny pieces of bones.  Your right when you say some weapon will damage more of the meat.  But not enough to lose alot of the meat.  But again....to each our own.
 
yes you may have to track a litlle ...from a lung or heart shot.....but....
 
That's why we say....if you can hit shoulder...you can hit lungs...go get a tracker ...the fun has begun.
Cheers
Ottawa, Ontario

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JPH
 
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RE: Shot Placement

Postby JPH » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:56 pm

ORIGINAL: cva54

sorry me and a key borad dont get along to good. No thats what I mean. What Iam saying a 54cal is a meat grinder! A H.P. with a skilled shooter will drop it in it tracks and not hurt any meat. With a bow you better be able to keep your kool and place that arrow were it needs to be when that time comes! Shot placement is the most inportant just some weapons do more damage than others iam a meat hunter


Cool. No issue with that.

I'll take the shoulder shot when I am certain I can make it. We have a lot of deer and plenty of doe tags, so the meat loss is not a big issue for me, but I understand.

I do think a head shot is a bad idea, but I'm not attacking you. I just think there is too small of a target surrounded by non-vital tissue.

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cva54
 
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RE: Shot Placement

Postby cva54 » Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:37 pm

If you get right down to it just about any gun will take a deer out. Iam just saying with small cal. rifles bows and a atlatl  shot placement has to be there. Let just say a deer is 65 yards out there broad side. 1 with a bow would you aim at the sholder I wouldnt lungs all the way. 2 rifle let just say 30.30 and up I would shot the front sholder with out thinking . Witch one is going to a cleaner kill ?

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