What dont some people get about QDM

[donutdavid]

Oh I believe you QDMAMAN. I'm quite certain you're being truthful. Their answer is exactly what I thought it would be.
THe neighbors hunted for a long time, then you started practicing qdm. All of a sudden they noticed a radical shift in deer behavior and movement. Probably to your advantage. Now before JPH can ask me how can I consider all the effort you put into making your property more attractive to deer as a bad thing, I'd ask this question:
What can your neighbors do to even out the playing field?
 
Like Goose, from an earlier post who experienced the same thing, your neighbor will likely have to give in to your requests. They'll have to start practicing qdm....food plots....sanctuary.......age/sex ratio....surveys........ if they want to bring more deer back to their now far less-attractive property. A property, that was perfectly ok for hunting the abundant, healthy herd that was already in place for the previous 45-years.
 
"But Donut, explain how that is a bad thing? If we all start practicing qdm we'll have larger, more healthy whitetails with more large-antlered deer purely as a by-product."
 
Does no one see where this is leading? Lets see some guesses of what you guys think I'm thinking..............(I'll save my answer for my next post)

[QDMAMAN]

ORIGINAL: donutdavid

Oh I believe you QDMAMAN. I'm quite certain you're being truthful.

What can your neighbors do to even out the playing field?

Like Goose, from an earlier post who experienced the same thing, your neighbor will likely have to give in to your requests. They'll have to start practicing qdm....food plots....sanctuary.......age/sex ratio....surveys........ if they want to bring more deer back to their now far less-attractive property. A property, that was perfectly ok for hunting the abundant, healthy herd that was already in place for the previous 45-years.

Donut,
We are very willing to help replicate what we've done on our properties, on theirs, if they were at all receptive.  They are hard core "traditionalists" and like most people, who loose in life, prefer to blame anyone but themselves for their lack of results.
Your statement "if they want to bring more deer back to their now far less attractive property".  The deer decide what is attractive.  For years they had one landscape to choose from...park affect woodlots.  The neighbors maintain a park affect woodlot, we (QDMers) have learned that deer aren't comfortable in park effect during daylight so in an effort to see more deer in daylight we accomodated the deer.  Trust me we've tried to explain to them the difference but they're not interested in hearing it from us dispite our results.  You can lead a horse to water...
You make the assumption that the deer herd prior to QDM was healthy and that it is no longer abundant or, that an abundant herd is a good thing.  The fact is that we were carrying 60-80 DPSM when we started QDM with a poor buck age structure and low fawn recruitment. Now we have an improving age structure (both sexes), deer numbers within or below carrying capacity and about a 1.5 fawn to doe recruitment.  So, we have a healthy thriving herd with great buck age structure and a herd that appreciates the habitat that is being nmaintained in their favor...as evidenced by their choice of hang outs.
Make no mistake the deer spend much of their time on the non QDM neighbors property but it is usually after dark, long after dark. 
It would be reasonable to guess that because they haven't adopted the obvious benefits of QDM that they probably haven't adopted new and widely accepted hunting technics..and you would have guessed correctly.  They continue to beat the same paths to their well worn stands at predictable times. Again we've offered alternative ideas but hey...what do we know.
When they do change stand locations it's usually on the property line with a QDM neighbor facing their neighbor.  At least they can see what they're missing.
I'm not one to go with the lowest common denominator so if they don't want to raise they're game I'm not lowering mine to accomodate them, been there done that, and the deer bare the brunt.
Big T

[ranwin33]

ORIGINAL: donutdavid

Oh I believe you QDMAMAN. I'm quite certain you're being truthful. Their answer is exactly what I thought it would be.
THe neighbors hunted for a long time, then you started practicing qdm. All of a sudden they noticed a radical shift in deer behavior and movement. Probably to your advantage. Now before JPH can ask me how can I consider all the effort you put into making your property more attractive to deer as a bad thing, I'd ask this question:
What can your neighbors do to even out the playing field?

Like Goose, from an earlier post who experienced the same thing, your neighbor will likely have to give in to your requests. They'll have to start practicing qdm....food plots....sanctuary.......age/sex ratio....surveys........ if they want to bring more deer back to their now far less-attractive property. A property, that was perfectly ok for hunting the abundant, healthy herd that was already in place for the previous 45-years.

"But Donut, explain how that is a bad thing? If we all start practicing qdm we'll have larger, more healthy whitetails with more large-antlered deer purely as a by-product."

Does no one see where this is leading? Lets see some guesses of what you guys think I'm thinking..............(I'll save my answer for my next post)

So what you're saying is that we should do nothing to improve our properties because it might adversely affect our neighbors?  Does that carry over into your everyday life as well?
 
So where is it leading?  I suppose it's leading to some of us will choose to improve our properties, others of us won't.  In some places that may change deer patterns, in others it may not.  Being humans, we're all pretty much going to do what we want to do, so that's where it's leading.

[donutdavid]

I'm with you, but if I read what your saying correctly, the only way they're going to get the results they used to get, or come anywhere near it, is to practice qdm.
 
And this will lead us to where?
 
(Let me clarify my assumptions: I think these guys thought they had reasonable hunting for 45 years. Now they don't and there's only one way to get back to they way they know it.  I should not have used the word abundant. You're right, I don't know what the herd looks like where they're hunting and i certainly don't think an abundant herd is a good thing.)
 
So what is the logical conclusion? Where is this taking us? In a short 50 years what will whitetail hunting in the U.S. look like?

[gunther89]

Whitetail hunting in 50 years will be different then now.  More land will be lost due to growing cities and more land will be bought by outfitters which means less land for us hunters.  

[JPH]

Dounutdavid, you are operating under the assumption that QDM is the reason things are not like they were 10-40 years ago. I do not think that is the case at all.

QDM is the logical next step in conservation practices. "Traditional" management worked but in most places it has run it's course. Herds grew beyond the carrying capacity of the land they were living on. That section of timber that was so productive for traditional hunters in 1980 is now over browsed and fully mature. It is no wonder that the deer have shifted onto land that is thicker and provides more food. That is not unique to QDM. Timber cutting and farming changes can produce the same results. QDM simply seeks to tailor these changes for the benefit of the deer herd and the hunter.

Where is hunting going in the next 50 years? I think we will see a smaller deer herd living in a more fragmented landscape. I think that private land ownership, leased hunting and outfitting will be more common. I also think QDM will win over as the prevailing hunting ethic and if it is successful, I think deer hunting will continue to thrive in spite of the changes.

Again, changing conservation practices are not the cause, they are the answer.

[willseyville]

here is how i see the fewer deer problem . when i started hunting here in n.y. we needed a party permitt of 3 to 4 people to shoot a doe then i the early eighties it went to one hunter could shoot a doe and there were herds also most of the farmers like me had switch over to high protein foilage like cows higher protein means richer milk so the does could raise fawns faster so now we come to today things are just the same now as it was then and i'm seeing fewer deer why here my thoughts. first fewer hunters when i started it sounded like a war opening week now one or two shots so i think deer are'nt moveing around like they use to . second cyotes there just to many of them i'm noticeing fewer fawns every year i hunt them but it dos'nt make a dent. on the poaching i hope i do'nt start a war here [:)] i think part of the problem is that we have made deer hunting all about antlers i just saw a story about an ohio man who shot a big buck on a deer farm with a rifle then claim he shot it with a bow somewhere else. there are people out there if they see a big buck on your land they're going to get that buck no matter what. when i was growing up i was told you hunt deer and all game for that matter for meat i still do but i do pass on small bucks for older does. that my thoughts on matter[:D] wayne

[msbadger]

I remember those days....Always afraid you'd shoot a doe about the same time one of the other guys on permit would...went with out shooting anything for along time...I'd hate to see it go back to that....Could not agree more about N.Y.'s yote and Poaching problem....Hate to say it but I'm glad to hear others speak on these things...I know the web gets monitored so perhaps someone will hear and listen...welcome to the site

[QDMAMAN]

ORIGINAL: donutdavid

I'm with you, but if I read what your saying correctly, the only way they're going to get the results they used to get, or come anywhere near it, is to practice qdm.

I never said that! I did say this though.
Quality deer management is 3 things.
1) Maintaining deer numbers at, or below, the physical carrying capacity of the land.
2) Maintaining proper buck:doe ratios.
3) Maintaining proper age stucture in the herd (bucks and does).

The problem they're encountering is that they haven't done anything to make their property more attractive to the deer and we have.  My belief is that if they had a greater interest in the HABITAT (read giving back) that they would embrace the tenats of QDM.  Them not enhancing their woodlots is no different than a farmer farming fence row to fence row and then complaining that there aren't any deer on his property to shoot.  When all of the habitat in the neighborhood looked the sdame everybody had the same opportunities to shoot at deer that were stressed out and moving from place to place to avoid being killed. Now those deer have options and my non QDM neighbors aren't one of them.  Trust me, we're trying to help them see this, I would rather have them successful and happy than as a naysayer.
If they don't choose to enhance their habitat they marginalize the carrying capacity of their property.

And this will lead us to where?

Well, the hunting in our neighborhood, on managed properties, is the envy of most hunters.  What we're doing is improving the hunting, the herd, and puting a positive light on hunters as more than just consumers.  No matter what you do you'll have naysayers.  If you're getting results...who cares what they say? 

(Let me clarify my assumptions: I think these guys thought they had reasonable hunting for 45 years. Now they don't and there's only one way to get back to they way they know it.  I should not have used the word abundant. You're right, I don't know what the herd looks like where they're hunting and i certainly don't think an abundant herd is a good thing.)

These guys had the same hunting opportunities we all had, to shoot at a constantly mobile, over goal herd, that ran from park effect woodlot to park effect woodlot in an effort to survive...but not thrive.
It's not that they don't see, or even kill some deer, they just don't see the herds of 10-12 deer every 60 minutes running across their woods like they use to.

So what is the logical conclusion? Where is this taking us? In a short 50 years what will whitetail hunting in the U.S. look like?

I think JPH answered that quite eloquantly and I agree. 
Hunters in the 21st century can't be content to be just "consumers" any more, they have to include "steward" in their titles.  Wether that means physically doing the work or supporting those of us that can/are doing the work.

Big T

[msbadger]

QDM...I'm surprised ppl around you would be getting upset....here the guys not managing their properties and bordering me or near me look at it as Let her put in the time and money it's just making bigger deer for us to get a shot at...really on sm. parcels ...other than high fence I can keep them here alot... but deer travel...wish some of the ppl would'nt but I won't beat that dead horse...it's their nature...one thing though ...since I started plotting our maple...ash...and oak seedlings are covering the floor of our woods...3-4 yrs ago there would'nt be a single shoot left by now...I'm hoping it's due to food and not the herd being too sm...awful lot of doe tags in this area...I actual don't really do it for just the deer...but land improvement....see hunting properties will be at a premium when I'm in my 70's/80's ...God willing...This land will NEVER go to houses EVER...but I can tell you it will bring a good price..when needed ...and I still have camp [;)]