Last day buck??

Discuss Quality Deer Management issues here!
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JPH
 
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RE: Last day buck??

Postby JPH » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:00 am

ORIGINAL: ranwin33

Finally I will say this, if you come by my place this Fall and I see a fawn in the bed of your truck, I will give you a ration of grief. And you can do the same back.

 
Thanks for the warning. Now I know not to put you in that situation.
 
I do what I do because of my desire to be a steward and connect with nature, not to impress other hunters. I catch enough grief in other aspects of my life. I own land, in part, to be someplace where as long as I follow the laws, I answer only to God and my family.

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ranwin33
 
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RE: Last day buck??

Postby ranwin33 » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:31 am

ORIGINAL: OHhunter
I have yet to read or talk to a biologist that says shooting fawns is bad for the herd.  I agree we need to educate, but we need to do so based on scientific research and  proven findings, not on " what works for me" or a don't want to shoot bambi issue.

I have yet to read or talk to a biologist who has suggested that shooting fawns is part of a proper QDM strategy.  If you could point me to some articles, I'd be happy to re-examine my opinion.  Also, remember that less than 20% of buck fawns actually develop buttons, so as you're shooting those fawns there is a good chance you're taking bucks out of the population.
 
Here is an article that supports shooting does as opposed to bucks and fawns since shooting does eliminates 2-4 deer from the herd as opposed to only one. . http://www.mnqdm.com/fall04/biologyf04.html 
 
And from Charles Alsheimer - I don't see any mention of shooting fawns.  Only does, and bucks beyond two years old.
[font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"]http://www.charliealsheimer.com/ca/articles/art_qdmqa.html
Q: What is quality deer management?
A: In a nutshell, QDM is a form of deer management that produces quality bucks, does, and fawns. The harvesting of yearling and two year old bucks is restrained in order to produce mature males. The harvesting of does is emphasized in order to control the whitetail population's adult doe to antlered buck ratio. In addition, the practice strives to keep all deer habitat at a high level. Finally, quality deer management should strive to improve landowner relations and increase the quality of the hunter in the field. The end result is a quality hunt. [/font]
[font=arial][/font] 
[font=arial]Given how little meat I'd get from a fawn, it's just not something I see much sense in.[/font]
“There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace.”
Aldo Leopold

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RE: Last day buck??

Postby OHhunter » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:05 am

ORIGINAL: ranwin33

ORIGINAL: OHhunter
I have yet to read or talk to a biologist that says shooting fawns is [/color]bad[/color] for the herd.  I agree we need to educate, but we need to do so based on scientific research and  proven findings, not on " what works for me" or a don't want to shoot bambi issue.

I have yet to read or talk to a biologist who has suggested that shooting fawns is part of a proper QDM strategy.  If you could point me to some articles, I'd be happy to re-examine my opinion.  Also, remember that less than 20% of buck fawns actually develop buttons, so as you're shooting those fawns there is a good chance you're taking bucks out of the population.

Here is an article that supports shooting does as opposed to bucks and fawns since shooting does eliminates 2-4 deer from the herd as opposed to only one. . http://www.mnqdm.com/fall04/biologyf04.html 

And from Charles Alsheimer - I don't see any mention of shooting fawns.  Only does, and bucks beyond two years old.
[font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"]http://www.charliealsheimer.com/ca/articles/art_qdmqa.html
Q: What is quality deer management?
A: In a nutshell, QDM is a form of deer management that produces quality bucks, does, and fawns. The harvesting of yearling and two year old bucks is restrained in order to produce mature males. The harvesting of does is emphasized in order to control the whitetail population's adult doe to antlered buck ratio. In addition, the practice strives to keep all deer habitat at a high level. Finally, quality deer management should strive to improve landowner relations and increase the quality of the hunter in the field. The end result is a quality hunt. [/font]
[font=arial][/font] 
[font=arial]Given how little meat I'd get from a fawn, it's just not something I see much sense in.[/color]

 
I'm not disagreeing that by harvesting an adult doe your taking her and her future offspring out of the population.  I'm just stating that I have not read anything that says it's [color=#ff0000]bad for the herd, still haven't. I might be getting behind on new research, but when I first started learning about QDM, 10 + years ago,  the motto for shooting adult does, yearling does or fawn was "the first one that offers a good shot oppertunity". Since I just read an article by Brian Murphy on the QDMA saying that exact same thing it must still hold true.
 
Brad

HUNT HARD, SHOOT STRAIGHT, CLEAN KILL APOLOGIZE TO NO ONE

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OHhunter
 
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RE: Last day buck??

Postby OHhunter » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:11 am

Sorry for the RED print it won't let me change/edit my post, keep getting a "runtime error"
Brad

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RE: Last day buck??

Postby ranwin33 » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:20 am

ORIGINAL: OHhunter
I'm not disagreeing that by harvesting an adult doe your taking her and her future offspring out of the population.  I'm just stating that I have not read anything that says it's bad for the herd, still haven't. I might be getting behind on new research, but when I first started learning about QDM, 10 + years ago,  the motto for shooting adult does, yearling does or fawn was "the first one that offers a good shot oppertunity". Since I just read an article by Brian Murphy on the QDMA saying that exact same thing it must still hold true.

Perhaps I mistated myself, I am not saying it's bad for the herd either, but I don't buy into the argument that it is good for the herd and that by shooting fawns you are supporting any QDM practices.  I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense to me and I don't believe it is right because: 
[ol][*]fawns tend to be pretty naive and not the most difficult animals to hunt so there is no sport in it,
[*]because their is not enough meat on them for me to want to spend a $25 tag when the same tag used on a doe will get me 3-4X as much meat,
[*]killing fawns may result in killing male fawns which is not good for the herd[/ol]
If as some would argue it's just as easy to kill a big buck as it is a fawn, why not wait for the buck? 
“There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace.”
Aldo Leopold

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RE: Last day buck??

Postby ranwin33 » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:21 am

I get the same error when I try to edit.
“There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace.”
Aldo Leopold

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RE: Last day buck??

Postby ranwin33 » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:41 am

ORIGINAL: JPH

Killing fawns IS part of my conservation effort!

I have killed two 160 class bucks with archery. Both deer died within 30 minutes of the first time I had ever seen them. I killed those deer due to equal parts of stand placement, playing the wind, dillegence, and luck. These happen to be the exact same things I have used to kill fawns. Yes the thrill was greater and I had to work to control my nerves with the bigger deer, but the degree of diffaculty was the same.

Then I would argue killing fawns is having no real impact on your conservation effort.  Sorry if that offends you, but it's just my opinion, and like other things, everybody has one.  I have made my points, you have made yours, and on those we will just have to disagree.
 
Now me, on my property I have never seen a 160 class deer, but I have seen a great many fawns.  So for me to kill a fawn would require far less effort.  Maybe you have 160 class deer running all over your place and fawn numbers that are comparable to the 160 class deer in numbers, in that instance those wiley old fawns just might require the same effort to hunt.  It's just not that way on my 100 acres. 
“There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace.”
Aldo Leopold

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RE: Last day buck??

Postby JPH » Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:53 am

Well ranwin33, I think it's safe to say that you and I are not going to agree on much in relation to this thread. In fact, I think that with each exchange we get a little further apart. So allow me to summarize my main points here, then I will pay my tab and excuse myself.

My general intent is to shoot several does of various age groups and bucks of 3.5 or older. I am always open to an adjustment of my goals, but the lateness of the season is not an influence. If I had my tag left on the last day, I would not shoot a younger buck.

I do things this way because my education and experience has lead me to believe that it is what is best for the deer herd and I enjoy hunting this way. I am happy to tell people what I do and why. I will encourage people to adopt a simmilar approach to conservation.

I also feel this way concerning matters of faith and morals. I have a standard that I attempt to apply to myself because I believe it to be right. I am happy to tell people why I try to live this way. I will encourage people to adopt a simmilar approach to life.

What I must not do, is demand that others do things my way, when the law does not require them to do so. I can advocate for changes in the law, but I must respect the rights of others. If I manage to change the way others conduct themselves, it must be from my example.

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RE: Last day buck??

Postby Goose » Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:57 am

http://www.qdma.com/articles/details.asp?id=46    article on killing fawns by John Ozoga(retired bioligist) on QDMA's site.
Jake

Genesis 27:3 Take your bow and quiver full of arrows out into the open country, and hunt some wild game.....

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RE: Last day buck??

Postby buckhunter21 » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:25 pm

ORIGINAL: schlupis

ORIGINAL: ranwin33

ORIGINAL: buckhunter21
...
Also, I don't think we can compare this whole scenario to the mortgage industry.  How does predatory lending have anything to do with this?  Obviously what they were doing was wrong...More of a fact than an opinion I would say. 

The example was used to demonstrate that being legal does not equate to being the right thing to do.

Let me use another, more relevant example.  In Missouri I can get unlimited tags and shoot as many does as I please, legally.  But it being legal, doesn't make it right for me to then go out and shoot ten or twenty does knowing I would never eat all that meat and it would spoil in my freezer. It would not be right for me to do that even if I was willing to give all the meat to some needy charity. Because killing that many does in a relatively small area would damage the herd.  Additionally I would not expect to be congratulated for killing those ten or twenty does, given the poor conservation effort and waste they now represent. 

Shooting those 10 to 20 does may be legal, but it's not right, and that is what I mean about setting higher standards.  It may be legal to shoot a fawn, button buck, spike, etc. but that does not make it right, and those of us who are experienced hunters should be willing to hold ourselves to higher standards if we truly want to consider ourselves sportsmen.

That's just my take on it.



This is a great post ranwin33 I have seen this happen a lot in Wisconsin with the unlimited tag senario. You get guys who just are out there to kill deer because they have tags in their pockets. I had to control myself last year when I talked to a guy who laughing it up while telling me and a few others how he killed 22 deer on his farm last year. My only response to him was and I quote Its stupid F-ers like you, are the reason we dont see any deer anymore. He responded by saying hey the DNR is going to keep giving out tags then I am going to keep shooting deer. again its legal but not right, because his killing of every deer he saw young and old effected the woods I was hunting in aswell. I am sorry 22 deer from any area is a big hit to any deer herd.

 
Ok, I get that last example then since you are talking about a apples to apples kind of scenario.  I agree with you on this...I'm from WI and yes, if the DNR hands you 10 tags, most hunters that I encounter out there think that you should use all those tags because, you know what, the DNR gave them to me and they know what they are doing.  WRONG!  ...And then they complain that they don't see any deer in their area.  Hmm...
QDM!

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