Last day buck??

Discuss Quality Deer Management issues here!
User avatar
ranwin33
 
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 2:12 pm
Location: Kansas and Missouri

RE: Last day buck??

Postby ranwin33 » Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:20 pm

ORIGINAL: JPH

Well ranwin33, I think it's safe to say that you and I are not going to agree on much in relation to this thread. In fact, I think that with each exchange we get a little further apart. So allow me to summarize my main points here, then I will pay my tab and excuse myself.

My general intent is to shoot several does of various age groups and bucks of 3.5 or older. I am always open to an adjustment of my goals, but the lateness of the season is not an influence. If I had my tag left on the last day, I would not shoot a younger buck.

Agreed!
I do things this way because my education and experience has lead me to believe that it is what is best for the deer herd and I enjoy hunting this way. I am happy to tell people what I do and why. I will encourage people to adopt a simmilar approach to conservation.

Agreed!
I also feel this way concerning matters of faith and morals. I have a standard that I attempt to apply to myself because I believe it to be right. I am happy to tell people why I try to live this way. I will encourage people to adopt a simmilar approach to life.

Agreed!
What I must not do, is demand that others do things my way, when the law does not require them to do so. I can advocate for changes in the law, but I must respect the rights of others. If I manage to change the way others conduct themselves, it must be from my example.

Agreed!

No hard feelings - I"ve enjoyed the discussion and will be leaving it myself shortly. I respect your views and your willingness to debate civilly. And again, I believe we are more alike than not in our views on conservation practices.
“There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace.”
Aldo Leopold

User avatar
ranwin33
 
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 2:12 pm
Location: Kansas and Missouri

RE: Last day buck??

Postby ranwin33 » Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:26 pm

ORIGINAL: Goose

http://www.qdma.com/articles/details.asp?id=46    article on killing fawns by John Ozoga(retired bioligist) on QDMA's site.

It's a good article but do not disregard his caveats:

There are some good biological reasons why hunters could and, in some situations, should harvest more fawns on extreme northern ranges:
“There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace.”
Aldo Leopold

User avatar
Goose
 
Posts: 2804
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:36 pm

RE: Last day buck??

Postby Goose » Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:43 pm

I understand that, I'm just pointing out that it can be beneficial in different circumstances.
 
A couple of questions for ya......
 
Do you feel it is a wrong for my dad who is 56 years old and has hunted his whole life to shoot and be happy with a 1.5?
Also, do you think it is wrong for my 83 year old grandpa who has been hunting his whole life to shoot and be happy with a nubby buck?
Would I be wrong for being thrilled that they were successful?
 
Its a blessing to be able to hunt with them and if I feel disappointed with what they shot because its not a mature deer.....Its not hunting to me.
Jake

Genesis 27:3 Take your bow and quiver full of arrows out into the open country, and hunt some wild game.....

User avatar
ranwin33
 
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sun May 04, 2008 2:12 pm
Location: Kansas and Missouri

RE: Last day buck??

Postby ranwin33 » Fri Aug 14, 2009 3:51 am

ORIGINAL: Goose

I understand that, I'm just pointing out that it can be beneficial in different circumstances.

A couple of questions for ya......

Do you feel it is a wrong for my dad who is 56 years old and has hunted his whole life to shoot and be happy with a 1.5?
Also, do you think it is wrong for my 83 year old grandpa who has been hunting his whole life to shoot and be happy with a nubby buck?
Would I be wrong for being thrilled that they were successful?

Its a blessing to be able to hunt with them and if I feel disappointed with what they shot because its not a mature deer.....Its not hunting to me.

Let me put myself in your shoes and give you my opinion as if it was my dad and my grandpa (both of whom are no longer around) and who I never had the opportunity to hunt deer with.  Let me also say I envy you the opportunity, it is a blessing. 
 
If it was my dad, and my grandpa, and over the course of many seasons they had shot plenty of deer, then yes, I would not be excited for them.  But I would also hope that over the last few years I would have had enough influence on them that they would choose not to do this.
 
If however, they had gone deerless the past few years or never shot a deer at all, then I would be happy that they shot something, but I would also be unhappy at what they chose to shoot.  Especially if they were hunting my property where does are abundant and so easy to kill we don't shoot them with guns anymore.
 
As and example.  Last year my nephew who has hunted with his father for years, and on our property for the last six years finally shot a buck.  It was a basket rack 8 pointer a year and half old.  I was THRILLED for him, and more excited about it than the buck I shot, because it was his first buck and second deer in all his years of hunting.  Yet, because of all the talk we do when not hunting, even he said that he almost let it walk because it just wasn't old enough.  Now if he can have that kind of resolve, why shouldn't we expect it of seasoned hunters who have taken plenty of deer. 
 
What you describe is not a matter of it being wrong, but it doesn't meet the level of rightness that I find acceptable for myself, if I truly want to think of myself as a conservationist and QDM person. 
“There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace.”
Aldo Leopold

msbadger
 
Posts: 2371
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:59 am

RE: Last day buck??

Postby msbadger » Fri Aug 14, 2009 6:01 am

JMO....but I find that really sad...

His first buck...he wanted to be proud and happy as any of us were with our first bucks....but he had that under lying guilt and....shame even...shown in the fact he said he almost let it walk...at the prospect of what his other hunting parteners might think of him taking a deer not of their standards

User avatar
buckhunter21
 
Posts: 2981
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:28 pm

RE: Last day buck??

Postby buckhunter21 » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:15 am

I think this whole thing comes down to just being happy with what you 'harvest,' and knowing the consequences of your choices for future hunts. 
QDM!

User avatar
Cut N Run
 
Posts: 540
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:21 am

RE: Last day buck??

Postby Cut N Run » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:26 am

We get enough antlerless tags that a hunter could easily fill the freezer with venison without having to take out an immature buck. Yes, they are legal, but so are button bucks. Personally, I would rather go deer-less than shoot a button buck (or a 1.5 year old for that matter). While that little guy could provide some meat, you also have to weigh the possibility that you are cancelling a portion of that age class of bucks from the area where you hunt. The youngster you hang your tag on may genetically be one of the most superior deer in the herd, but you will never know it.  I would rather see them get to grow to their full potential. Even if I don't see them as adults, if I know they're around it makes me hunt that much harder.
 
Deer hunting is not so difficult (at least here) that anybody who does their homework and works at it should be successful.  In areas there there is a shorter season, or a limited antlerless season, there may be more desperation to get a buck.  I feel that same way about turkeys. I will not shoot a jake under any circumstances.  I am a turkey hunting addict and while I prefer to tag out, I have gone bird-less the entire season rather than shoot a jake just to prevent being shut out.  I had jakes within easy range several times that season (including the last day of the season), but had to make "tag soup" at the end of the day.
 
A deceased friend of mine had a large tract of land in Virginia where he would let the deer grow until they were completely mature before he considered harvesting one.  He had a wall of trophy heads that would rival most places on this continent.  He would send me pictures of deer from the trail camreas around his property that were stunning. It proved to me that if deer had the luxury of being able to attain complete maturity and the herd was properly managed, it would yield some incredibly healthy deer.
 
The other side of that coin is a place where I hunted a few years ago that was in N.C. in a county where the deer were heavily hunted with dogs and a buck of any size would be shot regardless of size. There were a few big deer around, but very few.  The majority of the deer I saw were does and the bucks I saw were pitiful.  The herd was not being managed properly and was suffering because of it.
 
Jim
Luck Counts, good or bad

User avatar
Goose
 
Posts: 2804
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:36 pm

RE: Last day buck??

Postby Goose » Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:33 am

ORIGINAL: Cut N Run

 While that little guy could provide some meat, you also have to weigh the possibility that you are cancelling a portion of that age class of bucks from the area where you hunt. The youngster you hang your tag on may genetically be one of the most superior deer in the herd, but you will never know it.  I would rather see them get to grow to their full potential.
 
What age do you harvest your bucks at? If you take a nice 3.5, you are doing the same thing.....it is not fully mature and not at its full potential and you are taking out part of that age class.


Deer hunting is not so difficult (at least here) that anybody who does their homework and works at it should be successful.  In areas there there is a shorter season, or a limited antlerless season, there may be more desperation to get a buck. 
 
Tell that to my 84 year old grandpa, who is happy to not have his cane slip in the snow on the way to his stand. Any deer he gets is a blessing to me and I am not worried about the future of our herd if he gets a nubby.


A deceased friend of mine had a large tract of land in Virginia where he would let the deer grow until they were completely mature before he considered harvesting one.  He had a wall of trophy heads that would rival most places on this continent.  He would send me pictures of deer from the trail camreas around his property that were stunning. It proved to me that if deer had the luxury of being able to attain complete maturity and the herd was properly managed, it would yield some incredibly healthy deer.
 
You and he are both correct, but that is not reality where we hunt.


Jim

 
 
Ranwinn, I appreciate your honesty and respect you for it, but I have to disagree with you.
I guess this is why deer hunting is so great, you get to do what you want and feel is right when pull that string or hammer back.
I too believe in conservation and putting more into it than I take away, but to bring it back to reality for me, if my dad or grandpa are happy with what they shoot, we are doing the right thing IMO.
Jake

Genesis 27:3 Take your bow and quiver full of arrows out into the open country, and hunt some wild game.....

msbadger
 
Posts: 2371
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:59 am

RE: Last day buck??

Postby msbadger » Sun Aug 23, 2009 4:02 am

Well said  Goose

wiqdma
 
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:20 am

RE: Last day buck??

Postby wiqdma » Sun Aug 23, 2009 2:13 pm

I have not checked this link for a couple of weeks... I see that it is still very interesting.  I spend 80 days a year in the woods archery hunting. I would not spend that much time if I did not have the "passion".  I love having deer near me, I film almost every time I hunt. I enjoy seeing all of the deer including the fawns, does, young bucks etc...  Demo you are way off base to feel sorry for me... I do get excited or I would not be in the tree! 
 
And yes MSBADGER you can create an age structure and yes you can in my area grow deer to 4-5 years of age and yes you can harvest these deer each year.  And it all does come down to educating hunters about deer biology. You think the great hunters on the TV shows who own large farms.... no names needed, don't farm for wildlife?  Yes they do grow them and if you ask any of them they will tell you it is a learning process but it is all about understanding deer biology.
 
 

PreviousNext

Return to QDM • Quality Deer Management

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests