The Truth About Deer Lungs

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Goose
 
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RE: The Truth About Deer Lungs

Postby Goose » Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:06 am

R.J.
 
What is your theory or take on it? Please explain!
 
Where is this void and why do you think that is?
 
I look forward to your response.
Jake

Genesis 27:3 Take your bow and quiver full of arrows out into the open country, and hunt some wild game.....

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Goose
 
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RE: The Truth About Deer Lungs

Postby Goose » Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:14 am

ORIGINAL: Everyday Hunter

It is possible to put an arrow through the deer above the spine. Just a thought here, but perhaps people who have shot deer above the spine think they have hit below the spine, and therefore believe they've hit the so-called "dead space." (Sometimes people are unwilling to admit that they've made a bad shot.)

Steve

 
I agree with this, the spine curves downward before the neck. Its deceiving because the back looks straight but in reality the spine does go downward. This leaves a pretty good sized opening above the spine for an arrow or bullet to go through. A hunter in the heat of the moment might think that this area is under the spine, and I believe that this is where the "dead space" comes from. 
Jake

Genesis 27:3 Take your bow and quiver full of arrows out into the open country, and hunt some wild game.....

R.J.
 
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RE: The Truth About Deer Lungs

Postby R.J. » Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:29 am

Jake
     I dont do theroies, and it realy isn't rocket science, Dr. Philip is out in left field without a glove. Deer is not some mistical creature, they are one of the most powerfuls creation just like you are. The void is there just like in you so you can breath. Just go and look at the anatomyy of a horse, cow, goat, dog, or any other creature, with 4 legs. For instance on a horse you will see that the lungs lay on the lower brest plate and towards the rear they curve upward, when the diaphragm tightens this increasses the space in the chest cavity into which the lungs expand. On exhailing there is a space at the top, and to the rear of the diaphragm.
Just google it you can find a video, or photos.
Type in inflatting horse lungs.. dr Philip needs to learn how to google...
R.J.

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vipermann7
 
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RE: The Truth About Deer Lungs

Postby vipermann7 » Sat Oct 10, 2009 1:45 pm

I personally could go either way on the void topic, and rely on people who study that stuff to figure out if there is a void. From personal deer butchering experience, there does not appear to be a void. I've cut up a lot of deer, and there doesn't seem to be room in there. However, I will say that RJ makes a good point, that if the deer was standing up like is natural, there might be some room in there. I really don't know, because I'm not an expert on deer anatomy. All I do know is I have hit deer high that I have never found and that didn't bleed much, just a spot here and there. Did I hit a void, or did I hit above the spine? I really don't know because I never recovered the deer. When it comes to using experience to claim you have hit a deer high in that void, I think it's key that you actually recover the deer, examine it, and verify that you did indeed hit above the lungs but below the spine before relying on that experience as evidence.

Also, a note on respiration as it applies to voids in the chest cavity. There doesnt HAVE to be empty space inside the ribs for the lungs to expand, that's not how lungs work. Lungs inflate when the muscles in the ribs and the diaphragm pull open the chest cavity, thus also pulling open the lungs. That's why your chest moves when you breathe. If the lungs were simply filling a void inside the ribs, ribs would never move during respiration. Now that is what I have learned about human respiration, if it is dramatically different from deer respiration, then I digress and apologize for my misinformation. I'm not saying there is no empty space, but only that there wouldn't necessarily need to be any, and so it is perfectly logical that there may not be.

RJ, as for science being full of educated guesses, you are very correct about that. Science is a field of ethics, and some scientists don't have many. Also, technology has a lot to do with the guesses and conclusions come up with. However, science is more of a process of every day life than anything else. I simply hope you're not unfairly bashing science, because without it, we wouldn't have these computers we're writing on right now, the bows we use to hunt deer with, or the food in our refrigerators. Even cavemen used it. It's not a concoction of modern man, it's a process of guessing, testing, observing, and drawing conclusions, something that even animals do.

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RE: The Truth About Deer Lungs

Postby Everyday Hunter » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:22 pm

ORIGINAL: R.J.

Jake
    I dont do theroies, and it realy isn't rocket science, Dr. Philip is out in left field without a glove. Deer is not some mistical creature, they are one of the most powerfuls creation just like you are. The void is there just like in you so you can breath. Just go and look at the anatomyy of a horse, cow, goat, dog, or any other creature, with 4 legs. For instance on a horse you will see that the lungs lay on the lower brest plate and towards the rear they curve upward, when the diaphragm tightens this increasses the space in the chest cavity into which the lungs expand. On exhailing there is a space at the top, and to the rear of the diaphragm.
Just google it you can find a video, or photos.
Type in inflatting horse lungs.. dr Philip needs to learn how to google...
R.J.

R.J.
Welcome to the forum.
Let's suppose you're correct. If so, here's the question that must be answered: What occupies the space that the lungs expand into when they inflate? The answer isn't "nothing," because there is no vacuum in there. Other tissues would collapse into the vacuum. What I think, have always believed, and have seen for myself, is that the creature's diaphragm moves to allow room for the lungs to inflate -- not that the lungs expand into any so-called dead space.

I do recognize that an animal's posture can play a role in the position of its internal organs. That is why one must stand tall when singing, or have proper posture when playing a wind instrument. All of that relates to the proper working of the diaphragm, creating negative pressure to draw air in or positive pressure to expel air.

So, I don't see what you're saying, but I am willing to consider that I could be wrong. Maybe I'm not very good at googling either. How about if you google it for us, and post a link or two to what you find.

Thanks.
Steve
When the Everyday Hunter isn't hunting, he's thinking about hunting, talking about hunting, dreaming about hunting, writing about hunting, or wishing he were hunting.
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Goose
 
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RE: The Truth About Deer Lungs

Postby Goose » Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:22 pm

I think Steve and Vipermann covered my thoughts as well, so I will not add anything.
Its an interesting debate, but from what I have read and have personally experienced, I do not believe this space exists.
Jake

Genesis 27:3 Take your bow and quiver full of arrows out into the open country, and hunt some wild game.....

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RE: The Truth About Deer Lungs

Postby Everyday Hunter » Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:30 am

After I went to bed last night, I realized an omission I made. It's obvious, and I should have included this.

It's obvious because if you take a deep breath you'll realize that the rib cage is designed to expand as the lungs fill with air, so there is no need for a "dead space" to accommodate the increased size of inflated lungs.

Steve
When the Everyday Hunter isn't hunting, he's thinking about hunting, talking about hunting, dreaming about hunting, writing about hunting, or wishing he were hunting.
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oneida54
 
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RE: The Truth About Deer Lungs

Postby oneida54 » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:40 am

X-Ray a Deer!!?? Hmm. OK all you scientists out there, maybe you could take some of that grant money and put this to rest once and for all. I'ld try it myself, but I don't think my insurance would cover it.

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RE: The Truth About Deer Lungs

Postby drdaven » Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:00 pm

The idea that gravity somehow pulls the lungs to the bottom of the chest cavity seems on the surface to make sense.  The only problem with this is the fact the inflated lungs take up all of the space within the chest cavity. 

For those of you who have gutted/disected/processed a deer you have only seen a deflated lung within the chest cavity. 

For those of you whom have described the process by which the lungs work, through a collaborative effort you are correct.  The diaphragm is a large muscle that when contracted draws air within the lungs through a decompressive force.  The expansion of the rib cage assists this process.  The elevation of the shoulders and improvement of posture also, to a lesser degree add to this.

There is a smooth layer of tissue that encapsulates each lung.  Think Saranwrap.  This tissue when wet, allows for a reduction in friction between the lung and the chest cavity.  The lung is not directly connected to the chest wall.  If it were, our movements would be drastically reduced.  As movement would draw on the lungs causing pain.  There is a condition known as pleurisy which in essence is a spot of local irritation in this saranwrap-like covering.  The inflammation causes the spot to be less than smooth causing friction.  Just ask anyone who has had pleurisy how much pain they had and you have a better understanding of this restricted mobility. 

In regards to taking an xray of a deers chest cavity while it stands on all fours.  I will answer with this.  All chest xrays of humans are taken standing up.  This is to check for fluid levels within the chest cavity and/or lungs and to allow the physician to determine the positioning of the lungs.  (they sit at different heights)  There is no void in the upper chest cavity.  If there is, this is a sign of a space taking lesion.

The reasoning that gravity would pull the lungs downward in the chest cavity of a deer should apply to humans when we stand upright.  Afterall, standing up for us is the same as being on all fours for a dog, cat, cow, horse or a deer.
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RE: The Truth About Deer Lungs

Postby Squirrelhawker » Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:08 am

A number of years ago I ran some deer out of a creekbottom to my brother in-law. He dropped the six pointer and a doe. The sign told me I had interupted a little breeding activity.
 
Upon dressing out the buck, the knife blade hit what he thought was his slug but turned out to be the broken shaft of an arrow with a mech head that failed to open. Under the spine, but over the lungs. There is a "dead space" but it is small and is outside the chest cavity proper.

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