Arrow placement on a Big Buck

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Marc Anthony
 
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RE: Arrow placement on a Big Buck

Postby Marc Anthony » Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:44 pm

ORIGINAL: ranwin33

ORIGINAL: Marc Anthony

I agree with WW on several items mentioned. First, he's correct in saying the Rage has more of a chance to fail than a fixed broadhead. It's a no brainer. Anything that depends on multiple parts or movement to fulfill it's duty, has a greater opportunity to fail. Shot placement is also critical, so the shooter has the responsibility to place that shot in the vital area on a LIVE animal, which is totally different (stress wise) than on a foam target animal. ...

Just for fun.

If you are defining failure as not killing a deer, then I don't think you can say that the moving parts of the Rage give it a greater chance for failure unless you are comparing it to a 2 inch fixed broadhead and I haven't seen too many of those around. 

The question regarding failure is two part, will the Rage blades open, and will the hunter put the arrow where it belongs.  I would say that hunters making poor shots occurs with greater frequency than Rage blades not opening.  So... the Rage broadheads with their greater cutting area provide less opportunity for failure because they allow for greater error in shot placement.  The potential failure of the moving parts of the Rage is more than made up for by its' larger cutting area given the performance of today's hunters out in the field, making them the better choice for most hunters.

(disclaimer: I've tried Rage broadheads, they don't fly like my fieldpoints, so I don't use them.)

Again, just for fun.

As for arrow placement on a big buck - pretty much like everyone else has said, the vital areas are the same.



 
The Rage broadhead is ineffective unless it opens, period. Now given that it is designed to open, when it does, the Rage has been known to leave gapping holes in the animals that come in contact with it. Having said that, Muzzy Phantoms leave even a greater hole if you were to ask me because I've shot both. But I don't want to turn this discussion around and away from the original idea here and that is the mechanical aspect of the Rage. Simply put, if you were to shoot the Rage and another brand of broadhead, side by side, both being perfect vital shots, the Rage has more risk of failing because of the fact IT MUST OPEN and they simply don't always do! It's a simple fact of engineering, the more moving parts, the more a product depends on the parts to function in order to fulfill its task. This is why you have multiple back-up systems in aircraft because it's inevitable that something will probably go wrong, sooner or later. I also disagree with regard to the Rage's larger cutting area. Measure the surface area of a 3 or 4 blade broadhead, not the diameter and see what you come up with!
 
Again, the shot placement is still the same on the larger deer as the smaller deer, just the equipment used should be heavier...IN MY HUMBLE OPINION Image
 
 
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JPH
 
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RE: Arrow placement on a Big Buck

Postby JPH » Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:57 pm

ORIGINAL: Marc Anthony

...Now given that it is designed to open, when it does, the Rage has been known to leave gapping holes in the animals that come in contact with it. Having said that, Muzzy Phantoms leave even a greater hole if you were to ask me because I've shot both.


I will admit, I have never shot a Muzzy Phantom, but I did shoot a Satellite TNT (known for their large wounds) when I used fixed blade broadheads. I never saw any results that looked anything like the attached photo.

Don't ask me how, but the Rage-2 seems to open a larger hole than the surface area would imply. 

Please do not misunderstand me, I am in no way bashing fixed blades, but I do think the Rage offers a very viable alternative. 

Pink
 
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RE: Arrow placement on a Big Buck

Postby Pink » Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:09 pm

You get a larger hole IF they openImage If they dont open you get a deer runnin away with no exit hole. Makes for tough trackin!

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Marc Anthony
 
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RE: Arrow placement on a Big Buck

Postby Marc Anthony » Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:44 pm

ORIGINAL: JPH

ORIGINAL: Marc Anthony

...Now given that it is designed to open, when it does, the Rage has been known to leave gapping holes in the animals that come in contact with it. Having said that, Muzzy Phantoms leave even a greater hole if you were to ask me because I've shot both.


I will admit, I have never shot a Muzzy Phantom, but I did shoot a Satellite TNT (known for their large wounds) when I used fixed blade broadheads. I never saw any results that looked anything like the attached photo.

Don't ask me how, but the Rage-2 seems to open a larger hole than the surface area would imply. 

Please do not misunderstand me, I am in no way bashing fixed blades, but I do think the Rage offers a very viable alternative. 

 
I'm not a basher and I don't believe you're bashing fixed blades either JPH, so I can understand why you would believe the Rage makes a bigger hole. They certainly do a great job when they open, no doubt about it. I think the Rage does make bigger holes than many broadheads but even if their failure rate is only 5%, that's too much for me. It's tough enough for me not to make any mistakes while bow hunting, so I try to keep my odds down to a minimum. I can say with honesty, I have never had a problem or a failure with my Muzzy's and yet I know way too many hunters who have had issues with the Rage not opening.
 
Looking at it from another angle, I am also a licensed taxidermist here in Illinois and I have the opportunity to see many large bucks with various hole sizes. Unfortunately for me , I also have to sew those holes up! I have a great report with my reoccurring customers, so I have the pleasure of "shop talk" when time permits. Unfortunately, all too often I HAVE to politely hear all of the hunting stories that come with the deer. Some are great and some are long and drawn out LOL. Bottom line, many stories of the Rage not opening and in the same respect, many stories of the Rage leaving monster holes, in which I get to see or fix. Some of the biggest holes I've ever seen come from the 4 blade Muzzy, the Muzzy Phantom, the Rage and from Steel Force. The rest aren't even worth mentioning. The Rage is the only mechanical out of these broadheads and the only broadhead that I hear failures of.
 
Personally, I would prefer not to take that chance when I know there are better or equal hole openers on the market. IMHO!
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Goose
 
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RE: Arrow placement on a Big Buck

Postby Goose » Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:20 pm

When you say that a lot of them don't open are you talking about the 3 bladed ones that were recalled or the 2 bladed versions?
You probably talk to a lot more people than I do but I have honestly never heard anybody say that they had a 2 bladed rage not open up. I have heard people on here suggest that thats what happened on a deer that was hit but the person who shot the deer never said that.
 
To be honest, there are disadvantages to every head, thats why there isn't thee best head.
Correct me if I'm wrong here.
 
A normal fixed blade broadhead has a bigger surface area which could cause planing and could be difficult to tune.
 
A compact fixed bladed broadhead should tune better and offer less planing but on the other end they offer a smaller wound channel, less hemorrhaging, and on quartering shots the steep blade angle has a better chance of ricocheting.
 
A mechanical head (we'll use rage for the obvious reason)has less surface area for good arrow flight and ease in tuning, a great cutting diameter for major hemorrhaging, and has no problem with angles, but on the other hand because they are mechanical there is a chance of mechanical failure.
 
I believe that accuracy is the most important thing when hunting. When looking at the above options I truly believe from my own experiences with all models, that the rage head offers the most accurate head.
Using and playing with the 2 bladed rages I don't see how these heads cannot open up if they hit something.
 
I'm curious to hear your response on how a 2 bladed rage does not open up.
Jake

Genesis 27:3 Take your bow and quiver full of arrows out into the open country, and hunt some wild game.....

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JPH
 
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RE: Arrow placement on a Big Buck

Postby JPH » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:37 am

ORIGINAL: Goose

When you say that a lot of them don't open are you talking about the 3 bladed ones that were recalled or the 2 bladed versions?
You probably talk to a lot more people than I do but I have honestly never heard anybody say that they had a 2 bladed rage not open up. I have heard people on here suggest that thats what happened on a deer that was hit but the person who shot the deer never said that.

I'm curious to hear your response on how a 2 bladed rage does not open up.


My thoughts exactly Goose!

Marc I totally respect your decision to stick with a proven performer. I also respect your experience as a hunter an taxidermist. I don't think any of us is attacking the other option, and most importantly I think that we all agree that shot placement is the key with ANY broadhead.

But like Goose, I suspect that the bad experiences are from the Rage-3. The only mechanical failure I have heard of with the Rage-2 is premature blade deployment, and I suspect that this is the result of operator error. I have bumped my blades open in the dark myself, but have always caught it before the moment of truth.

If I had the budget, I would buy a couple packages of Rage-2's and a big rack of pork ribs. I would then affix the heads to an arrow shaft and commence poking them through the ribs. My guess is that without tampering with the heads, I would not be able to keep the blades from deploying. Just a theory, but at $40 per 3, I'll never be able to prove it. 

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RE: Arrow placement on a Big Buck

Postby CB on the run » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:43 am

Well, I hate to join these type of threads but I was having issues last year with 'tuning' my tried and true Innerlock broadheads after purchasing a new bow. I replaced my 90-91 vintage round wheel Hoyt which shot at 210fps with a 08 Martin Firecat which is shooting about 270fps. This happened right before the season so I ended up shooting Rage broadheads because they shot consistantly and I had personally spoken to Chuck Adams at the Northeastern Sportsman Show in Harrisburg,PA the previous Febuary. He endorses the Rage as most probably know. He told me that he shoots the two blade and believes in them and their mechanics or he would not have given his endorsement. However, I totally agree that all things being equal, a mechanical by shear nature has a higher failure rate that a fixed blade. The next paragraph is why I'm posting to this thread.
After spending many days this summer in my back yard trying to get my Innerlock heads(plus Muzzys, Wasp, 2 NAP's & Satelites) to 'fly' I gave up. But only after trying two different brands of carbon arrows and numerous fletching combos. I shot feathers straight, off set and right helical and the same for Blazers, NAP's and Bi-Delta vanes. All fixed blade heads shot left, some high some low and didn't group worth spit. Three types of mechanicals did: the Rage and the 2 blade and 3 blade spitfires from NAP. But I noticed that the 2 blade NAP's were never open on the back of my target so they were eliminated. So it came down to the 3 blade NAP and the 2 blade Rage. I had 1 NAP and 2 Rage so with Chucks' endorsement in the back of my mind I went to my local archery pro-shop. The Pro-shop owner summed all my testing up in a nutshell-my bow is not tuned properly and proved it. My arrow is slightly kicking up causing the non-mechanicals to catch more air on one side thus 'planing'. I didn't buy my bow from him as he does not sell Martin but went to the outlet he recommended. He sold me another pack of Rages and told me to come back after the season and drop off the bow, arrows and broadheads and he will tune it and my non-mechanicals will fly the same or very close to the same weight field tip. I also read in one of my magazine(possibly Bowhunting world) that they shot numerous broadheads of the same weight all to field point impact with some sort of mechanical bow machine and release. They also indicated that broadhead flight is the result of 'bow tuning'. So that's my experience. Good luck to all.

CB

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ranwin33
 
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RE: Arrow placement on a Big Buck

Postby ranwin33 » Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:49 am

ORIGINAL: Marc Anthony

The Rage broadhead is ineffective unless it opens, period. Now given that it is designed to open, when it does, the Rage has been known to leave gapping holes in the animals that come in contact with it. Having said that, Muzzy Phantoms leave even a greater hole if you were to ask me because I've shot both. But I don't want to turn this discussion around and away from the original idea here and that is the mechanical aspect of the Rage. Simply put, if you were to shoot the Rage and another brand of broadhead, side by side, both being perfect vital shots, the Rage has more risk of failing because of the fact IT MUST OPEN and they simply don't always do! It's a simple fact of engineering, the more moving parts, the more a product depends on the parts to function in order to fulfill its task. This is why you have multiple back-up systems in aircraft because it's inevitable that something will probably go wrong, sooner or later. I also disagree with regard to the Rage's larger cutting area. Measure the surface area of a 3 or 4 blade broadhead, not the diameter and see what you come up with!

Again, the shot placement is still the same on the larger deer as the smaller deer, just the equipment used should be heavier...IN MY HUMBLE OPINION Image


 
If the Rage's failed to open on a routine and regular basis, then yes I could probably go with that argument, but given the design of the product, I cannot believe that happens all that frequently.  So given the larger cutting "width" the Rage provides for a greater factor of success given normal hunting situations.  
 
All things being perfect, then yes the Rage has a greater chance of failure, but in the field things are seldom perfect and I would argue that more hunters make imperfect shots than Rage broadheads failing to open, and given the larger cutting "width" the Rage provides a greater opportunity for success given imperfect shots.
 
If I were to worry about moving parts, then I'd have to give up my compound bow, my release, my bow sight with multiple pins, my bolt action rifle, my muzzle loader, my pump shotgun, and I'd probably never get to go hunting because I'd be walking instead of driving my truck.  Those things all have far more complex moving parts than a Rage broadhead and I still trust them to work, so why not the Rage. 
 
Speaking of heavier equipment - when does the 125 grain broadhead fall out of favor.  The reason I ask is that I shoot a 60 pound draw weight, 26.5 inch draw length bow.  I always thought that a 125 grain head would be too much given I'm not shooting anything all that fast.
“There are two spiritual dangers in not owning a farm. One is the danger of supposing that breakfast comes from the grocery, and the other that heat comes from the furnace.”
Aldo Leopold

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Marc Anthony
 
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RE: Arrow placement on a Big Buck

Postby Marc Anthony » Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:44 am

ORIGINAL: Goose

When you say that a lot of them don't open are you talking about the 3 bladed ones that were recalled or the 2 bladed versions?

I'm curious to hear your response on how a 2 bladed rage does not open up.

 
I'm talking about both Goose. Here's a quote from a guy who sent me an email: "I tried the 2 blade on a doe a few years ago, and It never opened. Had the doe not dropped in sight, i never would have found her, Zero blood trail. Since then I only shot Slick Tricks. I have played with many mechanicals over the years and most have failed on me.  My experience on the Rage 2 blade and Grim Reeper (sp) 3 blade is neither opened for me".
 
I get emails like this all of the time. I also talk to hunters in my taxidermy studio who say the same thing. FYI, I'm not against the Rage and I want to make that perfectly clear. Yes, I'm a die hard Muzzy user but there is a reason for that. That reason is the fact that they have never, and I mean never, failed me. Every deer hunt or shot that I've taken that was bad was directly my fault and not the broadhead's fault. I have never heard anyone, ever, talk about a Muzzy broadhead failing them but I have heard many stories regarding the Rage.
 
When referring to shot placement, that is the hunters responsibility not the broadhead manufacturer's. Tuning, planing, etc. all have to be overcome by the shooter. If your broadhead planes to the point where you miss your target, I'm here to tell you that there is another variable in the equation that needs to be addressed. My whole point to this conversation is I do not want to risk a broadhead failure (by not opening up) as it just isn't worth it.
 
I respect Chuck Adams, in fact he is one of the very few I do respect, but I believe he is paid to endorse the Rage. He may very well like the Rage as his favorite broadhead which is why he endorses it but I always take paid endorsements with a grain of salt. FYI, I'm not paid by Muzzy to endorse their broadheads just merrily to let the public know I use them. I can switch broadheads in a New York second if I desire to.
 
I shot a Muzzy through a metal ladder by accident last week, as many of you know, and the blade stayed in tack and solid! To me, that is testament to a company who delivers a solid product with premium materials with no compromises. I can't say that about many other broadhead manufacturer's as I've tried many and have also tested them at the Non Typical Hunter testing facility with mixed results. Bottom line, the Rage does a magnificent job of tearing up flesh when they work as designed but today's hunter can find equal destruction with no risk of mechanical failure with some other broadheads. Some people don't mind the risk and like the Rage, despite the chance of non-deployment and that's their choice. I, for one, take the added risk of ground hunting and pay the price now and then by getting busted but am willing to do so because of the other benefits that come with it.  
 
 
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Goose
 
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RE: Arrow placement on a Big Buck

Postby Goose » Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:47 pm

Thats cool , to each their own.
It just really bugs me when someone posts a shot that they took and people from all over who WERE NOT there say: oh your using the rage, I bet it didn't open up. They have no idea what happened, they are just attacking a product for no reason.
 
Thanks for the quote, I know a lot of people who use these heads and this is honestly the first time I have ever heard somebody say that the 2 bladed rage did not open up.
 
Good discussion, but I will be sticking with the 2 bladed rages for the reasons I have stated above, and because they cant be beat IMO.
Jake

Genesis 27:3 Take your bow and quiver full of arrows out into the open country, and hunt some wild game.....

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