QDM Splinter Group?

[schlupis]

ORIGINAL: JPH

I just don't like the way some people use the title of QDM to look down on other hunters.

We recently had another thread going where a pominant hunter was critical of another hunter, in the name of QDM, for shooting 120 class bucks. This hunter bragged that he had visited the state in question and had never settled for anything smaller than 140". He siad very little about actual age, just antler scores. He did not tell us how many does he had killed or how many acres of woodlands he worked to improve. But since he would never take a 120" deer he was thought to be more committed to QDM.

I just don't see it that way.

 
I remember this thread and decided to stay out of it for the simple reason I stated before I am sick of arguing about QDM. I am just happy to get back to the basics of hunting, hunters helping hunters. I always hate to see others put themselves up on a pedistile because they have killed more big bucks. Like I said earlier I am embarassed in how I sounded in earlier post because I fear I did the same thing even though that is not at all who I am as a person or a hunter. Before I typed the first post on this thread. I sat back and reflected on past deer seasons. The only constant thing I could remember is standing around drinking a beer looking at deer hanging from the meat pole of our and other hunters camps reflecting on the story of the hunt laughing and pocking fun at each other. Most of those deer were does and young bucks, with the occasionsal monster hanging from the pole. The only difference I can come up with in the story of the hunt, as far as excitment is, at the end it was either a big buck or a small buck or a doe. The excitment never changed because of antler size.
 
This thread gets me thinking about a lot of things when it comes to hunting. I earlier said this year I will not kill a doe this year, atleast not in the farm country I hunt. But I was recently on a hunt on the property I mentioned earlier with the food plots. I was suprised and pleased to see 17 deer that night 14 on the food plot at one time. All of the deer were does not even a single nubby buck. I know they all walked past me at 7 yards. So I guess We need to kill a couple does off that property this year. I will chalk that hunt up to another lesson learned in the deer woods.
 
I will end this post by saying I love hunting and everything that comes with it and it truly is not about the kill for me. I had a truly fantastic season last year I killed a nice doe and was on one of the most exciting rifle hunts of my life, with my buddy killing his biggest rifle buck. Long story short he shot the buck and hit it far back we jumped it and backed out. Came back hours later and jumped it again we decided to push the deer and eventually I ended up finishing the buck off for him on the run. So we hang the rack in the camp and when people as who killed that buck we both answer I did.
 
Good luck to everybody this season and god bless.

[shaman]

I had a lot of time to think about this on the stand over the weekend. It was early ML season here in KY.  I had  a gazillion does come by, but not a single buck.

That got me to thinking:  should I be taking doe now?    I don't mean the early vs. late season question, but the emotional side of the thing.  It came down to what WERE my goals for the season?  While I was counting coup on these doe,  I was looking at them and really wondering a) what was I doing out here if I wasn't going to shoot one b)  Was that a reason to take a life?  c) what was I doing to manage the herd?

The answer was:  a) I'm out here to have fun b)  If it didn't feel right to that inner carnivore, why should I argue? c)  Deer are managing themselves pretty well.  I've set up a self-serve buffet and put up a honor box instead of a cash register, and every little once in I while I just eat one of the patrons and call things even.  The manager at Golden Corral Buffet should have it so easy!  Although, I think once patrons figured about that last proviso, I think patronage would drop off-- just thinking.

Then that got me thinking about what my real specifications were for my idea of a "quality" deer hunting experience.

1)  Deer.  I just like seeing deer.  I dunno.  It's just . . . fun.  I like being in the woods with them. I like interacting with them.  Sometimes I like talking to them.  Sometimes I like to shoot them. Sometimes I like to eat them. Sometimes I feel like a nut, sometimes I don't. 

2)  Big Deer with big racks. I really like seeing big deer and I especially like shooting them.  However, it would get to the same situation I have with the doe. If I became a rack addict, when would I be satisfied? The last BIG ONE I waxed put me into a real existential quandary.  The last big one I saw-- last year's "Chandelier--" I never once got a look at when I had the means for taking him.  I like that: a near-certain failure with the chance of something big.  It's kind of like playing the lottery is for some people I guess. Put me down for two Powerball drawings with a kicker and a drop tine on each.

3) Sharing it with my two sons.  I've always missed the camaraderie of deer camp-- all my old hunting buddies died off early on.  I had to go out and grow my own.  Bringing them along has been a huge undertaking, but it has turned into a very satisfying experience.

4) Slack.  I love the way deer hunting on my own land has been a demanding hobby, but I also like the slack to sit around and watch the clouds roll by when I feel like it-- or the slack to deliberately go out and Not-hunt does with my muzzleloader.


So I  finally realized where I was coming from.  Being able to sit in a treestand and watch gobs of deer all day and having a HINT of the next BIG ONE is probably what I want.  In a way, it made me happy I hadn't gone over-the-top with QDM, and I can go out and have fun and if a goofy looking 8 pointer comes through like last years, I can shoot him and drag him back to camp and not feel like I've tragically fouled up the  QDM goals for the year.

So there I was with the Hawken, up in a tree and a little while later the next happy little doe came out and I counted coup on her a half-dozen times before she got up under my stand and found my empty baggie I'd had my pepperoni and cheese snack stashed.  She spent the next 10 minutes circling my stand trying to figure out what was up, and all the while I'm keeping the sights on her boiler room, hammer at half-cock and snapping the trigger, and after I'd owned her soul  20 times over, she wandered off, and I realized I was happy and fulfilled and picked my stuff up and went in for second breakfast with KYHillChick and the boys.


 . . . now the question remains: How can you package that in a quality deer program?

[schlupis]

ORIGINAL: shaman

I had a lot of time to think about this on the stand over the weekend. It was early ML season here in KY.  I had  a gazillion does come by, but not a single buck.

That got me to thinking:  should I be taking doe now?    I don't mean the early vs. late season question, but the emotional side of the thing.  It came down to what WERE my goals for the season?  While I was counting coup on these doe,  I was looking at them and really wondering a) what was I doing out here if I wasn't going to shoot one b)  Was that a reason to take a life?  c) what was I doing to manage the herd?

The answer was:  a) I'm out here to have fun b)  If it didn't feel right to that inner carnivore, why should I argue? c)  Deer are managing themselves pretty well.  I've set up a self-serve buffet and put up a honor box instead of a cash register, and every little once in I while I just eat one of the patrons and call things even.  The manager at Golden Corral Buffet should have it so easy!  Although, I think once patrons figured about that last proviso, I think patronage would drop off-- just thinking.

Then that got me thinking about what my real specifications were for my idea of a "quality" deer hunting experience.

1)  Deer.  I just like seeing deer.  I dunno.  It's just . . . fun.  I like being in the woods with them. I like interacting with them.  Sometimes I like talking to them.  Sometimes I like to shoot them. Sometimes I like to eat them. Sometimes I feel like a nut, sometimes I don't. 

2)  Big Deer with big racks. I really like seeing big deer and I especially like shooting them.  However, it would get to the same situation I have with the doe. If I became a rack addict, when would I be satisfied? The last BIG ONE I waxed put me into a real existential quandary.  The last big one I saw-- last year's "Chandelier--" I never once got a look at when I had the means for taking him.  I like that: a near-certain failure with the chance of something big.  It's kind of like playing the lottery is for some people I guess. Put me down for two Powerball drawings with a kicker and a drop tine on each.

3) Sharing it with my two sons.  I've always missed the camaraderie of deer camp-- all my old hunting buddies died off early on.  I had to go out and grow my own.  Bringing them along has been a huge undertaking, but it has turned into a very satisfying experience.

4) Slack.  I love the way deer hunting on my own land has been a demanding hobby, but I also like the slack to sit around and watch the clouds roll by when I feel like it-- or the slack to deliberately go out and Not-hunt does with my muzzleloader.


So I  finally realized where I was coming from.  Being able to sit in a treestand and watch gobs of deer all day and having a HINT of the next BIG ONE is probably what I want.  In a way, it made me happy I hadn't gone over-the-top with QDM, and I can go out and have fun and if a goofy looking 8 pointer comes through like last years, I can shoot him and drag him back to camp and not feel like I've tragically fouled up the  QDM goals for the year.

So there I was with the Hawken, up in a tree and a little while later the next happy little doe came out and I counted coup on her a half-dozen times before she got up under my stand and found my empty baggie I'd had my pepperoni and cheese snack stashed.  She spent the next 10 minutes circling my stand trying to figure out what was up, and all the while I'm keeping the sights on her boiler room, hammer at half-cock and snapping the trigger, and after I'd owned her soul  20 times over, she wandered off, and I realized I was happy and fulfilled and picked my stuff up and went in for second breakfast with KYHillChick and the boys.


. . . now the question remains: How can you package that in a quality deer program?

Shaman great post. To answerer your question You cant. what you expressed comes from the heart and cant be made from a deer hunting program or seed bag. I was thinking the other day how much more fun deer hunting was before the letters QDM came around. Not that improving habitat is a bad thing I enjoy putting the work in to benifit all the wildlife on the property, but it seems that when people start throwing out in conversations that they do QDM they are really meaning We hunt for big bucks only and dont even think about hunting with us. I have even seen QDM play a role in realestate. Here in wisconsin if you look for land to buy you will find that most land will advertise been in QDM for X amount of years like it matters to me. I just want my own land. I have seen the price per acre rise because of those 3 letters and I dont think that is right.

[JPA]

ORIGINAL: Patriot


I'll tell you what...I'll smoke the first 1.5 year old that comes by.  After that I will pass on them for the rest of the season.  It's like Diet QDM I guess.[:)]  I like to get some meat in the freezer and taste the feeling of the kill....I'm not going to lie to ya.

 
Patriot
 
That is exactly how I was a few years ago.  Now I attempt to accomplish that by shooting a doe.  In fact, my family and I just this week enjoyed some tasty tenderlions from the doe I shot this past weekend.  She certainly got my blood flowing.

[schlupis]

So JPH did we come up with a name for this splinter group or are we just going to call it HHF, Hunting and Having Fun.

[JPH]

Haha! Sorry, I kind of ran out of steam. Now I'm back to not caring what we call it. Maybe Goose hit the nail on the head back in his first post on this thread. "Conservation" has a nice ring to it, even if it is not sexy.

[msbadger]

Shaman....In all your writings...that was far and away the best....Thank You Sir  for sharing [:)]

[jsjandro]

ive gotta laugh. #1 i was just thinking of starting a thread on this - not a break off of qdma but whether or not its practitioners are actually practicing or not.
 
#2 i agree with jhp and many of you out there 100% but some of these posts are exactly the opposite of what qdm is about.
 
qdma in its origanal form was all about removing all the frilly bs about what makes "ME" happy and satisfied akin to acting like a five year old in the rant of i can do whatever i want and blah blah blah.
 
qdma is about being a steward of the land and matching the total deer #s with the habitat and further balancing the herd within itself. even a balanced herd beyond the capacity of the land isnt qdma.
 
it seems to me that the average qdma guys i live and hunt around here in wisconsin have no idea that what they are doing isnt qdm, its something else. maybe tdm.
 
qdma is about being satisfied with doing what's right for the environment and all who live in it. if some other factor is bled into the equation, that no longer is qdma.  in most areas of my state if you shoot one or two does out of your plot with 15 in it at once, is that qdm? ha! one doe is nothing. but a lot of people say that's qdm and thats responsible doe harvest, even though they are the same to whine that the rut don't roll around till the first two weeks in november. (and its the dnr's fault too![:@]) lol!! 
 
qdma doesnt really need changing, and the changes listed here are so miniscual i dont think they shadow the real issue here, and that is that so many qdma fakes that harvest bucks based on antler inches instead of age and dont make an honest doe harvest attempt have tainted the concept as well as the name to many.  when i hear of anti qdma, it usually has something to do with confusion with trophy hunting, or people are meat hunters that dont understand that qdm makes bigger bodied deer per age and thats while making bigger antlers too, and this benefits meat hunters in that they recieve more meat per kill. or people have a beef with stand sitters cuz they do deer drives and the two dont mix.  lots of old timers that do drives dawn till dusk by me are mad at people like me cuz i bought 20 acres that they used to drive, and put in food plots, did tsm, and only let people hunt from above ground for safty reasons - namely me living in the middle of my woods and i dont want an accident.
 
to sum me up, im the guy that says qdma is being hurt by people that claim allegance but dont follow the golden rule of it: make the deer herd as best as it can be, without harming the habitat or the balance of the herd.  if that alone doesnt inspire you or doesnt match what YOU want out of deer hunting, then you are selfish as a hunter and arent a steward of the land - you are enjoying exploitation in one of it's many forms. and it's your doings that the rest of us that do care are constantly trying to fix.
 
you can't satisfy people by catering to their every want and whim - it always fails in the end.  you can only satisfy yourself through discipline, and hope others will follow your lead! that is qdma.   

[Chasin Tail]

I believe Goose was dead on with the term being Conservation. I have always been a conservationist. I enjoy just being outdoors watching all the wildlife that surrounds me, even that pesky squirrel that's giving away my location. I spend at least twice as much time planting trees, grass, and other forage / cover for all the wildlife and most importantly observing and learning, than I do hunting. True, my 1st love is deer and deer hunting, but being a good steward of the land is at the top of my list.  Every time I take a someone out into the woods, I marvel at all that we are blessed with.

I am a bit soured on all the commercialism of of deer management. I want to learn to become an even better steward and would just like to thank everyone for their thoughts and comments towards a unified goal.

[ghost7071]

"the movement is loosing its way in a maze of antlers, arrogance and hybrid clover."
Well put.....
 
First, as a small acre landowner, I use the QDMA info along with other sources of info to try and provide better environment for the wildlife on my property. This covers from deer to doves and in between. The biggest problems I always had was the level they wanted to work on, i.e. their idea of small landowner is 100 acres. So I read and try to adapt at my level (27 acres) with various levels of success.
 
Second, I hunt as always for the love of the outdoors and all it has to offer. I also hunt to feed my family, therefore I don't worry about "Trophy Racks" but rather the quality and size of the deer (both does and bucks). In turn this would benefit bucks with nicer racks and overall heavier deer both does and bucks.
 
Third, the biggest stumbling block I run into is my surrounding neighbors. I have a hunting club on one side, a State Wildlife Management Area on one and private property on the other two. I have no control over what their management practices are. Additionally, the deer have to cross those properties to reach mine to benefit any efforts I am putting out and are subject to being taken by those around me.
 
So my philosophy is that I hunt for the age old enjoyment it brings and food it provides my family and the chance teach our children good morals and a love of the outdoors as they grow up. I try to shoot only 'adult' deer but I do not get wrapped around the axle trying to guess the age, nor do I restrict myself to antler points because if it's an adult buck it will probably have 6 or more. I try to provide as much food and cover as I can develope for the animals that frequent my property. This in turn benefits me and my family. As you put it, "the movement is loosing its way in a maze of antlers, arrogance and hybrid clover", and lost site of the true enjoyment of hunting. You have some good points and your intent is true and in line with my thoughts also. Maybe one day they'll realize they lost their way and return to the fold......