So you want a new Deer Rifle, huh?

[shaman]

 . . . and never mind the fact that (where was this?  Virginia?)  it was flat out illegal.  Stupid. 

It works, but . . .


While we were on the subject, I saw a post today about whitetail hunting with a 458 Lott-- similar sort of ballistics from what I understand.  Please folks, keep the questions to rifles of .416 Rigby and under.  I don't want this thread to turn absurd.

[;)]

[nhdeerchaser]

I agree shaman! This thead need to stay on task as a deer cartridge thread!
I'm gonna hook up with a custom loader and see what kinda magic he can work for me for some 165 grain bullets for my 06'. The guy who put me onto him swears by him!

Mike

[shaman]

If it was a bolt action, I'd see if you could take the rifle into him and have him seat the bullets to just a few thousandths off the rifling.  However, with an auto-loader, I've found this to be less of an issue.  The issue with an autoloader usually is keeping the overall length of the cartridge within the acceptable range of the rifle to have proper cycling.  Some autoloaders are finicky that way with long heavy-for-caliber bullets.  None of this applies to your situation-- I'm just saying.

Bullet choices:  I'm always a big fan of Hornady Interlock SP 165's .  My second is the Rem Corelokt 165 PSPCL.  3rd and 4th place go to the 150 grain versions of each.  It's really all just a toss-up-- whatever shoots the best in that BAR is what counts.   If I HAD to chose a premium bullet I'd  think about the Nosler Partition or Accubond. Frankly, there is not a deer bullet out there that would really scare me. Speer, Sierra, Barnes.  . .  You're not pushing any envelopes with your rig. The trick here is finding something that groups with minute-of-deer accuracy and doesn't bust your wallet or your shoulder.

Remember that you're willing to sacrifice a little velocity for accuracy.  Somewhere as the load approaches MAX velocity, the rifle starts losing accuracy and MAX is really different for each individual rifle. That's why a good reloader starts at least 8% off MAX as he's working up a load.  Beyond MAX is never a good idea, even if no pressure signs are evident.  If you see signs of excessive pressure, like a bulging primer or a sticky action, you're already well past MAX and you're shouldering a pipe bomb.  Meanwhile, old fuds like me keep the velocity close to the minimum starting load, and make nice accurate loads that still punch through both sides of the deer at all-but-extreme distances. Old fuds like me also like keeping their faces intact too.

Here are some basic rules of thumb:

1)  If you're really really close, don't go for shoulder shots; go for the boiler room
2)  If you're really really far away, move closer .
3)  There is no such thing as bullet failure if it produces a dead deer. The deer's dead, right?
4)  There is no such thing as bullet failure on an un-recovered deer. You botched the shot.

. . . And I like John Barsness' basic guide to whitetail deer hunting. It's something like "Pointy end towards game, Aim for front half of animal. Squeeze, don't pull."
 
The voices inside my head tell me it's time to go back to the cave and load some 308 WIN.  Later.

[MI Hunter]

ORIGINAL: shaman

I know John as MuleDeer over on 24hourcampfire.  Yes, I try to read everything that man writes, and he's very accessible. If you ever get over there, tell him the shaman sent you.

The 35 REM?  Follow me here. First off, I'm not a huge fan of 30/30.  I'd been a 30-06 snob in my early years and a 30-30 was my first trip away from home.  It's a long story, but 30-30 did not impress me.  The Marlin 336?  Wonderful rifle.  I really like everything about it, but the 30-30 seemed a bit anemic to me-- long story.

I've since made my peace with 30-30 WIN.  It took a while, but I finally found a load that worked.  In the meanwhile, I found a Savage 99 in 308 WIN that that I deliberately downloaded to 300 Savage levels.  That's been the perfect rifle/round for me so far.  The only thing I like in the Marlin 336 over the Savage 99 is the exposed hammer that comes to half-cock.  I really love deer hunting, in fact hunting in general, with an exposed hammer.

Then I start looking at the 35 REM.  It's very very close to a  30-30 in a lot of ways, except it has more recoil and not all that more range.  So it comes down to this: If I don't have warm fuzzies about 30-30, why do I want a 35 REM?  My explorations will probably take me in a different direction.

I actually do want a Marlin 336 in 35 REM one of these days.  I want to have it re-chambered for 356 WIN and have a 358 WIN equivalent on a Marlin 336 action-- what a sweet rifle that would be.  The 30-30 can get a similar treatment and become a 307 WIN-- a 300 Savage kind or round on the Marlin 336 action.  If these things don't come to pass, I might very well end up with a Browning BLR in 358 WIN, 308 WIN or some such thing-- you just never know.  I also know a bunch of guys who've bought Marlin 336 donor guns in 35 REM and then gotten so attached to them they never send them off for the re-chambering. 

Moral: if you're going to do a custom gun project, never take the donor gun out to the range. It may end up never being mailed to the gunsmith.

One other thing. I'm not going to speak out against Marlin's attempt to make bring out their new rounds in partnership with Hornady.  It's kind of the wave of the future-- people want a rifle and they're locked into buying the special ammo to go with it.  I'm fine with that, and so far the response to these offerings is good.  Personally, I like the idea of building on what's already there. The Marlin offering in 308 is a LOT like 307 WIN and 338 Marlin Express is a LOT like 356 WIN.  I'm also a reloader, so I have biases that other guys don't.

This is all just IMHO.  I'm telling you my basic biases, and I don't mean to tell someone their 35 REM is ugly or their 30-30 is too underpowered to take deer.  This is just an old coot who has finally learned to listen to the voices inside his head-- otherwise they make me do bad things.  The voices are telling me to go down to the shamanic loading cave and polish some brass. I must obey.

I frequent the campfire quite a bit and always look for John's posts.  I enjoy them quite a bit and he, as you said, is very accessible.  I picked up the 35 Rem about 2 years ago for my father due to we were hunting an area where you might get a 50 yard shot.  He uses that, I use my 358.  He wanted either that or a 30/30 levergun.  Had the 356 Win still been produced, I probably would've went that route, but we got a great deal on it and I have no issues with it at this point and it's been great in the cedar swamps.  I have to agree with your thoughts on the new rounds with the special ammo….at least as a handloader.  What happens if that round becomes obsolete?  I saw savage is now offering their classic bolt action in both the 250 and 300 Savage.  Too bad they didn't do a run of 99's

[MI Hunter]

ORIGINAL: shaman

Bullet choices:  I'm always a big fan of Hornady Interlock SP 165's .  My second is the Rem Corelokt 165 PSPCL.  3rd and 4th place go to the 150 grain versions of each.  It's really all just a toss-up-- whatever shoots the best in that BAR is what counts.   If I HAD to chose a premium bullet I'd  think about the Nosler Partition or Accubond. Frankly, there is not a deer bullet out there that would really scare me. Speer, Sierra, Barnes.  . .  You're not pushing any envelopes with your rig. The trick here is finding something that groups with minute-of-deer accuracy and doesn't bust your wallet or your shoulder.

Remember that you're willing to sacrifice a little velocity for accuracy.  Somewhere as the load approaches MAX velocity, the rifle starts losing accuracy and MAX is really different for each individual rifle.

I've always been fond of the Hornady SP's myself.  They've shot very well for me and in a number of different cartridges.  The Rem CL's have been good to me to and in fact the best group I ever shot with my 358 was with the 200 grn and a mild load of IMR4064.   My experience has been similar to yours in that most loads I've ever worked up, best accuracy was well under max, however there have been exceptions, notably with RL22, but most of the time this isn't the case. One of my favorite deer bullets has been the Sierra Pro Hunter, it's a superbly accurate bullet and I've found if I can't get this bullet to shoot in a rifle, something is wrong.  I know some don't like them and say their too soft, explosive, etc, but after many, many deer, it's been stellar for me.  

[shaman]

I frequent the campfire quite a bit and always look for John's posts.  I enjoy them quite a bit and he, as you said, is very accessible.  I picked up the 35 Rem about 2 years ago for my father due to we were hunting an area where you might get a 50 yard shot.  He uses that, I use my 358.  He wanted either that or a 30/30 levergun.  Had the 356 Win still been produced, I probably would've went that route, but we got a great deal on it and I have no issues with it at this point and it's been great in the cedar swamps.  I have to agree with your thoughts on the new rounds with the special ammo….at least as a handloader.  What happens if that round becomes obsolete?  I saw savage is now offering their classic bolt action in both the 250 and 300 Savage.  Too bad they didn't do a run of 99's

Now, what you have to do is take that 35 REM and send it off to Nonneman  and get it re-chambered for 356 WIN.  [;)]   The brass is still available, and I know there's also a way to make it from something else.

I feel sorry for all those guys who hopped on the WSSSSSSM and SAUUUUUUUM bandwagon in the last decade and rode some of these rounds into obsolescence  For anyone who had been been around a while, this was all kind of a train wreck you could see coming from a long way off.  Now they're sitting with  these shoulder bangers that nobody wants and a dwindling source of ammo. The problem with these wide/short fellows is there's sometimes no way to make the stuff from something else.  I'm already looking at that with the 7.62X54R.  That's a WEIRD case.


Amen to the 99's.  I keep hearing that they're thinking about it, but the years keep going buy.  I hope the old lady with the recipe doesn't die while we're waiting. 

Well, see probably you're using  the IMR 4064, the Sierra bullet and the 358 WIN all together, right?

358 WIN is sort of the lighter twin of the 35 Whelen, the IMR 4064 is a somewhat faster powder, the whole package is meant to run in the middle of the 358 WIN's range.  Your whole system is meant to take somewhat the middle road.  If I remember correctly the Sierra 200 grain can be used well in the 35 REM too.  I can see why someone building a bone cruncher 350 Rem Mag load  would think it was a tad soft. If I remember correctly, MuleDeer is a huge fan of IMR4064

The only reason why I chose H4895 was I was already using it for the M1 Garand, and as I experimented with it in other cartridges  I was finding it held the most consistent shot to shot velocities.  I was also cooking lots of youth loads for the kids.  The next thing I knew I was buying 8-pounders of the stuff.  You have to be careful picking powders when working with poopy loads.  There are some powders that just don't generate consistent pressures when the case isn't crammed full.  Sometimes all it takes is raising the barrel and making all the powder run to the back of the case, but that is not a good idea for hunting loads.  BL-C(2) got scratched off my list, because it never was consistent whenever I chronographed it.

The only bullet I've ruled out so far has been the 200 grain Rem Corelokt PSPCL, but only because I suspect it wasn't opening up fast enough on deer-- probably meant more of a elk/bear.  I had one bad experience and switched to the SPCL (rounded) and have never had a problem since.  For the distances I expect, that round nosed bullet is no problem.

[shaman]

Update:  I just traded email with Whelen Brown,  the proprietor of www.35cal.com  .  He said his site had been hacked, and he pulled it down temporarily to deal with the problem.   If you're a 35 fan, this is the best site out there. 

I had the Whelenizer out this afternoon, shaking it out for season.  It printed a nice group as did the WIN 70 in 30-06.  Both are now cased up and waiting for season.  Frankly, I'm getting itchy.  I was out with the crossbow this morning-- it made me miss the rifles all the more.  My crossbow is NOT a rifle-- no way!

[jyeomans]

I have some good reports on the 300 savage, less recoil thsn a .308. Is the 300 savage powerful enough for black bear,mule deer, & maybe elk Thanks john.

[shaman]

The 300 Savage will do anything the 308 WIN or 30-06  can do, except it has to be done closer.   Once the bullet leaves the muzzle, it really doesn't matter what the shape of the brass is.

Here's a rifle ballistics chart:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_ballistics_table2.htm

Compare the 300 Savage velocity and energy at the muzzle to the 308 WIN at 200 yards-- nearly the same. 
Compare the 300 Savage velocity and energy at the muzzle to the 30-06 WIN at 200 yards -- nearly the same.

Outside of accuracy considerations, you wouldn't think twice of busting a cap on an Elk, or a bear  at 200 yards with a 308 WIN or 30-06.  The problem is range.  The 300 Savage trades that light recoil for limited range.  If you're hunting Elk or bear in timber, 200 yards is a long way.  If you're out in the open, 200 yards might be just a starting distance.  Out beyond 200 yards, you really see the 300 Savage start to lose its oomph, whereas the 308 WIN and 30-06 are still humming right along.  

The same is true about the 30-30 WIN, except now the relationship is reversed.  Folks take bear and elk with the 30-30 all the time.  The velocity and energy at the muzzle for the 30-30 WIN is about the same as the 300 Savage at 100 yards -- give or take with similar bullets. 

Generally speaking, I've heard the 308 WIN/30-06 is preferable to about 300 yards, the 300 Savage to be good out to about 250 and the 30-30 WIN good out to 150 yards. Out beyond 300 yards, especially with bigger animals, you're probably better off with a 300 Win Mag. Some one will be bound to argue this, but I try to be conservative.

In my woods with my deer, I never get shots farther than 200 yards. If I was going to bump off either an Elk or a black bear, I'd probably go with 30-06 or 308 WIN over the 300 Savage if I had the choice. In fact, I've got the option of 35 Whelen on the rack. That would be my first choioce.   On the other hand, if somebody asked me hunting at the last minute and they slapped a 300 Savage in my hands I'd feel fine.

[nhdeerchaser]

Gonna pick up a Remington 7600 in .308 off a buddy of mine! He's giving me an offer I can't refuse!
I figure when my son turns 16, he will have a "coming of manhood" deer rifle.
In the meantime, dad's gonna have one sexy 7600 .308!

Mike