Do You Think the QDM Bubble has Burst?

Discuss Quality Deer Management issues here!
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JPH
 
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RE: Do You Think the QDM Bubble has Burst?

Postby JPH » Thu Apr 22, 2010 2:54 am

ORIGINAL: Gulfcapt

like I've said before Im no Biologist. But the word GENETIC Is by far not overused.. just not UNDERSTOOD by alot of people. My choice of the word culling was wrong? ok lets say.... take him out of the social herd group! That deer that at one time was a 180class buck. on the down size of 130class. (Still a great deer to me too, at 130) ANY doe that buck might of mated with has a potential of reaching180 or better, especialy if that doe he mated with had a sir/father that was the same caliber/or better. (every year that buck mates, gives you a nother "chance" at a 180class or better deer) Then again does size really matter. lol My wife made me say that! Jph/Goose Thanks for the reply I enjoy reading everyones personal apinions/thoughts


Again Gulfcapt, the reason I shoot a buck has little or nothing to do with the antler characteristics he might or might not pass on. Even if I owned a thousand acres (yeah right!), the chances of seeing those button bucks in adulthood would be slim. At least if what I have read about buck dispersal is correct.

Anyway, the reason I try to allow bucks to live for a few seasons is complex but I'll offer a couple of my reasons based on reading and personal experience:
- Older bucks have enough body weight to endure post-rut winters.
- Older bucks are more efficient breeders.
- Does are more likely to breed on time when older bucks are in the herd, resulting in better fawn survivability.
- Older bucks are smarter (or at least more experienced) and offer a greater hunting challenge. 
- Holding for older bucks stretches my season.
- Older bucks have heavier bodies and heavier racks. There is just something about laying your hands on a massive deer. I can't explain it any better than that.

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SwampLife
 
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RE: Do You Think the QDM Bubble has Burst?

Postby SwampLife » Thu Apr 22, 2010 12:37 pm

ORIGINAL: ShoulderNuke!
the fact is prior to ever hunting season that the deer herd is 1 - 3 ratio in every part of the country due to the fact that in all parts of the country the birth rate for ducks to does is 50 / 50



ORIGINAL: ShoulderNuke!
Well actually the fact is that a herds natural state is not 1-1 it is actually 1-2 or 1-3 if on a natural unmanipulated by hunters state.


So the fact is that our current nationally hunted deer herd has a natural, unmanipulated, sex ratio? Despite the obvious hunter buck bias harvest. All while maintaining a 50/50 gender ratio at birth?

Interesting.


ORIGINAL: ShoulderNuke!

ORIGINAL: SwampLife

QDM is spreading like wildfire, especially with young and new hunters. It is the future like it or not.

ORIGINAL: ShoulderNuke!
No real overall health benifit to the general deer herd.


Besides all of the unnecessary stress and wasted energy due to poor breeding rituals.

With minimal dominant bucks in a herd all of the sub's are free to run every hot doe ragged and chase each-other in circles until they all keel over from over-exertion.

I do agree that overall, gender ratio is more important. But proper age structure is crucial.



Actually after about 35 years in the deer woods has tought me that the same stress of the rut chase is there wether it is done by a perfect mixture of old bucks and young bucks or all yung bucks . You see the key here is that the fewer the does and more bucks there are the more intense the compition becomes . And it don't matter diddly if a doe is being chased by a 6.5 year old ,3.5 year old ,and 5 1.5 year old -- or 5 1.5 year old bucks they will still run her till she stands that my freind is the real fact and the fewer the does and more the bucks the higher the strees as the copmition gets intens. Besides if a buck will grow up a 6.5 years of age and have 200 inch plus rack that year it will pass the very same genetics avery year prior even when he was a year and a half old with 75 inches of antler .

These are IMHO exactly what QDM pushers do not see or understand .


Exactly what I do see and understand is that I have never witnessed a mature buck behave like an adolescent buck in any way, shape or form in the wild, including breeding rituals. But since someone told me over the internet that they do, well I guess I will accept that as another 'fact'.
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ShoulderNuke!
 
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RE: Do You Think the QDM Bubble has Burst?

Postby ShoulderNuke! » Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:24 pm

ORIGINAL: Everyday Hunter

I have no dog in this fight, but I have to say that only the first quote talks about harvesting does in order to reduce the competition for food so that bucks grow bigger. 

The second and third posts talk about not harvesting younger bucks so that bucks get older. This frees the herd from being dominated by yearling bucks. The second quote says nothing about an aggressive doe harvest.

Does the third fit this description:
ORIGINAL: msbadger

As little as a year ago when QDM was mentioned the biggest part of many post was the size and age of buck...going out and thinning the doe and not plotting so much for herd health as to attract and KEEP them BIG Boys around....

The third quote does in fact talk about harvesting does in the context of herd health -- "When that happens, the physical burden of breeding falls on bucks that are physically up to the task and it occurs in a shorter period of time. The biological benifit of the 'intense rut' is that fawns drop at the right time, and thus carry more body weight into the next winter." References to the physical burden of breeding and the timing of the fawn drop are clearly about herd health. And it says nothing about planting food plots in order to keep the big boys around.

I don't always agree with JPH, but if the third quote is his, it doesn't bit the description. Actually, only the first quote fits it. And it's hard to base much on that one because the writer's comments are in reference to an article he read -- which he may or may not have understood correctly.

The real reason for an aggressive doe harvest is to allow the habitat to better support the population of deer and all species that share their habitat. QDM doesn't say that you should always have an aggressive doe harvest. There's a thing called "carrying capacity." Once the doe harvest has brought the deer herd into balance with the habitat, the doe harvest can be reduced to a point where the overall deer population remains level.

While I'm at it, I might as well say that QDM practitioners who know what they're doing don't plant food plots in order to keep big bucks around. They plant food plots in order to provide nutrition year 'round, even during the seasons when otherwise the deer have a hard time. Also, Alsheimer wrote an article a year or two ago saying that you can't "stockpile" bucks. They will go where they want to go, especially during the rut, and most properties aren't large enough to keep bucks from roaming.

Steve



Great post here .This was my point also in that most hunters who try to practice QDM think that it is a shoot all the does you can and let every buck walk except the giants type mentality.It is not it is about as you said caring capacity on the land you have . I have yet to even come close to that on my farm . I have never had a late fawn crop or seen any deer on my land in poor health due to lack of food and extended rut due to out of balance herds . Our rut here for the most part runs right at 2 weeks from the seek and chase phase to the the end of lock down. Yes there is always a early or late doe put the meat of the rut is over all very short here and they stay fat and sassy.

I agree with the articles that Alshimer has written as late including and especially the stock piling one and let the old herd doe walk one she is the reason your young fawn bucks live to mature ages and keep the doe herd smart and safe..
35 years of hunting deer and more than I can count down and I still learn something new every year! There are no absalutes with Deer or in Deer hunting

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RE: Do You Think the QDM Bubble has Burst?

Postby ShoulderNuke! » Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:41 pm

Well older buck deer are just that buck deer with a few years on em they are no different than any other deer that has had some hunting seasons under their belt with a scrape or two. You believe what you want I mean it to because if it works for ya great but if you are not taking mature bucks on a faily consistant basis than you are not doing what you should do or are being misslead somewhere .

My beliefs are built on lots of science and what is on my wall an falls under me most seasons ,and that is many many inches of mature bucks.Like the bucks in the pics of my wall and on the ground also like the ones my boys have taken by listening to me and knowing that deer will do what deer do and big bucks move with light pressure and plenty of does to cover every year.the bucks on the wall are all mine my sons have thier mounts in thier room / home

So like I tell everyone I know or meet "hunt the way you want too" but I will hunt the way that works and manage my farm to the highest success level for me and my family for the most mature bucks in my area.

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35 years of hunting deer and more than I can count down and I still learn something new every year! There are no absalutes with Deer or in Deer hunting

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Gulfcapt
 
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RE: Do You Think the QDM Bubble has Burst?

Postby Gulfcapt » Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:04 pm

thanks for ur response swamplife and I do agree with you on that email you sent me... but I haven't figured out how you people get these dang QUOTES posted on this forum lol

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SwampLife
 
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RE: Do You Think the QDM Bubble has Burst?

Postby SwampLife » Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:20 pm

ORIGINAL: Gulfcapt
thanks for ur response swamplife and I do agree with you on that email you sent me... but I haven't figured out how you people get these dang QUOTES posted on this forum lol

What email?

the quote button is at the top right corner of each post.


ORIGINAL: ShoulderNuke!
but if you are not taking mature bucks on a faily consistant basis than you are not doing what you should do or are being misslead somewhere .


I arguably hunt one of the toughest deer herds in the nation. Poor habitat, poor genetics, no sound deer management within hundreds of miles, low deer density, gators, snakes, waist high cypress swamps choked with vegetation, mosquitoes, 90* days during archery(now imagine scent control) and orange visible in every direction during gun...

but I still pull out decent bone every year, off public land.

Those are some nice pictures from deer hunting Heaven but I hunt in deer hunting Hell. I would love to see you attempt to do what I do, where i do it.

But I am still at a loss as to how all of this is relevant to the contradictions i pointed out in my last post. Nice way to dance around it though, with the pics and bragging and everything, but a simple "I was wrong" would have sufficed.

Oh, and don't get me wrong m8, I kinda like you and your super-opinionated posts and whatnot. For the most part I agree with what you have been typing.

Oh, and for the record, some of the hands down greatest deer hunters I have ever known have never killed a 'mature' buck.
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JPH
 
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RE: Do You Think the QDM Bubble has Burst?

Postby JPH » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:46 am

ORIGINAL: ShoulderNuke!

...if you are not taking mature bucks on a faily consistant basis than you are not doing what you should do or are being misslead somewhere .



Shouldernuke, those are some nice deer but they do not make your opinions re. deer hunting and deer management automatically more valuable than anyone else's. In fact, since you continue to tout 35 years of experience and you only have a handful mature bucks to show off (spread over several hunters), your record does not appear to be "consistent" either. Don't get me wrong. You don't have to shoot a B&C every season to impress me (you don't have to shoot anything for that matter). If a person's opinions are well reasoned and well presented, I will listen. 

I guess the reason I struggle with your posts is that I cannot figure out what you stand for. I see that you are against QDM. You are against shooting does. You are against the new generation of "metrosexual" hunters. You are against emotion or remorse re. killing a deer. So I know what you are AGAINST.

My question is, what are you FOR? What do you have to offer us that is positive and helpful?

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Everyday Hunter
 
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RE: Do You Think the QDM Bubble has Burst?

Postby Everyday Hunter » Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:31 am

Hey, JPH -- he agreed with me agreeing with you! And I like his avatar. [:D]

Steve
When the Everyday Hunter isn't hunting, he's thinking about hunting, talking about hunting, dreaming about hunting, writing about hunting, or wishing he were hunting.
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RE: Do You Think the QDM Bubble has Burst?

Postby ShoulderNuke! » Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:12 pm

For You JPH since you asked.

Actually I am for sound "very smart" management of the land and deer herd and hunter management. I do have a farm I shoot does on north of the home farm, but my main buck hunting land is my home farm .I will not shoot the does who live there anymore because when they step off and in the way of of the hunters that border my farm they are likely to be taken because they think that they are QDMrs but they never shoot anything but 1.5 year old basket racks.

There have been more than a few good bucks over the years that I never took for one reason or another but still ended up taking a one of my target bucks instead but that is hunting .Some were shot by anther hunter a few just dissapered forever ,A couple died of natural causes one was hit by a car .

One Old Buck I waged a 3 year epic war with that he won plain and simple . I had watch him grow for 4.5 years and was ready to take him but he was not ready for that and we battled every season till he was 7.5 years old . Inever seen him agin after that he would scored betweed 190 -200 in. typ I have what was left of his 7.5 year old right shed it had a circumfrance mesurement between his g2 and g3 of 7 1/8th and the mesurment betwwen his g3 and g4 was 5 2/8th inches with a base mesurment of 5 7/8thinches and beam length of 28 3/8ths. Yep he wone but I have ahis right shed that year and I still know that I got just a small peice of him .But he got a big peice of me since he won and then vanished.

So does this make me a better hunter or consistant hunter to you if it does great if not I will not sweat what a guy who does not know me or has seen my bucks sway me or ruffle me in any way .Because what I do works most of the time.

So I stand for smart management .I /we do not shoot does there we guard them and take mature bucks from their tail every year. If the doe herd was harming the land on the farm that I live on I would thin a few out but since I layed off of them about 15 years ago the bucks show up there and stay almost the entire duration of the rut for the most part . Many bucks simply call it home and grow old there .

I Do not agree with the mentality that to be a qdm guru you have to shoot every doe you can not every state or property is way out of balance buck to doe or anywhere remotely close to carrying capacity .Because after all the end all to every QDM wannabe is to shoot the most mature buck the hunting area they has. My goal is no different than theirs I just wizened up and the does/deer get quite comfortable on the farm that I grow has several acres of standing year round food plots and timber cuttings for bedding.

As for the bucks I take a mature buck almost every year and you only saw just a few pics of my bucks and a couple of my sons . Buy the way they are not just some guys as you put it they are my kids . The oldest has deer hunted 12 years and for the first 10 he was free to shoot what he wanted with bow or gun and made some good choices on the way as you will see in a few more pics of his first bow buck and then the next years bow buck. My youngest who is now 18 and the pic of him with his first buck that made the book by the way was one I put him on because he promised strait As and delivered he also delivered a giant buck I was saving for myself for the next year .


What do I stand for ??

So I stand for hunters hunting the way they want ,I stand for hunters not making excuses to anyone especially another hunter for what they shoot or the way they do it as long as its legal . I am for all hunting weapons I am for hunters minding their own business if they can not say anything nice to another hunter . I despise anti hunters . I believe in freedom of choice . I believe that every hunter ultimately must make only himself happy and if that means shooting a 4 pt buck that he has watched for an entire season so be it who am I or you to tell him no.

Here are a two of my oldest sons bow kills from 12 years ago the small 8 was his first and the next buck was his choice completely the next year. Then my youngest second buck a 4.5 year old pig with an average rack his choice . Then a pic of my buck laying with an arrow in his back on the ground just a few minutes after the kill. my choice and then a few pics of a few of the random bucks from over several years.

OH ya just so you all know I posted the pics not as some kind of brag or boast I posted them to give you an Idea I know how to hunt mature bucks for my area and manage my land . If I did nut I would not be taking good bucks and my sons would be struggling to get their bucks also . We are not struggling or are we lucky either I /we work hard all year on our land and game plan . We do not make excuses we hunt hard .

Oh ya I also stand for this statment. "Buck deer will be buck deer everywhere they live they eat ,sleep,rub antlers ,scrape ,move to and from feed to beds and the breed does and there is a rut in every deer herd and all bucks have a weakness you just have to find it.

They are not mystical ,magical ,clairvoiant animals they use thier senses in ways we don't even have a way to underestand or fathom but they are still just animals with weeknesses and flaws in what to some seems to be inpenatrable armor.

For you Swamp life a few answers.

I have deer hunted Fl west of Vero Beach quite a few miles my aunt and uncle lived down there for years as did my Great grand dad did in lakeland I kicked around a few palmeto swamps there after a buck but passed a couple of 6 points and took a 7 pt later , a plantation in SC 8pt there, and south east TN took a nice 7pt there. They are by far the hardest hunting I have had to do but I took bucks from all three I was told they were good for the area after I took them.Were they

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35 years of hunting deer and more than I can count down and I still learn something new every year! There are no absalutes with Deer or in Deer hunting

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JPH
 
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RE: Do You Think the QDM Bubble has Burst?

Postby JPH » Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:18 pm

I think you are missing my point Shouldernuke (or maybe I'm failing to express it). You could post a thousand big deer photos and they would still not mean that your opinions are worthy of any more consideration than anyone else here. I mean we could get into a contest but I'm afraid Jackie Bushman would end up winning. And we don't want that now do we? It is how we express our opinions and what we offer to other posters that gives value to our contribution here.

I think you have a lot to share with us. I'd certainly like to know what you know. I just think that you came out of the gates a little harshly and it is a lot easier to see what you dislike than what you like.

I really appreciate the things you shared in your last post and I actually share many of your opinions. I'd like to see that side of you more often.

Again, nice deer by the way.

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