Antler restrictions

[charlie 01]

One area I hunt is a army training facility. They have antler restictions of 4-pts or better, and a one buck limit per hunter. It seems to work well there, producing some quality bucks. But, I see a lot of small 8-pts taken that are nowhere near their potential. But, that is his or her trophy and they are happy and I should not judge. Probably their first or second buck, or just glad to shoot a buck. I shot my share of small bucks in the begining. I guess I'm just an old big buck hunter now and that,s the way I look at it. What I do see, is the quantity and quality of the bucks coming out of the states such as Ohio, Indiana, and Iowa that are at one buck only. Sure, Illinois, Wisconsin and other states produce big bucks, but the fore mentioned states are starting to climb in their trophy listings. That is why I'm for a one buck limit. I know some do not agree. I would rather have it this way instead of antler restrictions. 

[Wolfman]

ORIGINAL: SwampLife

Thanks for the feedback on my post.

I can promise you that the experiences of our hunting before and after the APR's is night and day. It used to be the highlight of our trip if someone got to see a basket rack 8 pointer, now we don't even pick the bow up for them, I see at least half dozen or more every year in a one week period. We have always hunted western PA where it is 4points to a side now.

I know there are some negatives to APR's(novice hunters, meat hunters, old stubborn men set in their ways, etc...) but they have been heavily outweighed by positive's and nothing but a blessing (thus far) for PA, IMO.

[font="Microsoft Sans Serif"]EXACTLY. Sorry, but there are too many places in the N.E. where you would never see anything but spikes & forks without APRs. There are too many places where people will shoot anything that moves ... that's why some farmers write the word COW on the side of their cows. [/font]

[SwampLife]

ORIGINAL: willseyville

here's my problem with antler regs. last year while bow hunting i saw a buck he was a 4 point and he was an old buck i mean he grey he was so old there was no doubt in my mind that this buck was at least 7 to 8 years old if not older . i some areas in n.y they have antler regs and you have at least 3 points on one side so even if the buck was past his prime he would be a non shooter.in my area we don't have them and being it was the near the end of season i put him down [:)]wayne

That is definitely one of the small beefs I have with APR's, I think a mature buck should never be off limits. I think if you take the deer to a biologist or warden after you soot it and they verify the age being 'mature' then that should trump any APR since that is the ultimate goal. And if you make a mistake on the age you get fined. People will quickly realize it is much easier to count points than it is to determine age.

[Everyday Hunter]

ORIGINAL: SwampLife

That is definitely one of the small beefs I have with APR's, I think a mature buck should never be off limits. I think if you take the deer to a biologist or warden after you soot it and they verify the age being 'mature' then that should trump any APR since that is the ultimate goal. And if you make a mistake on the age you get fined. People will quickly realize it is much easier to count points than it is to determine age.

I, for one, could live with this rule. I can't see any problem with age as a defense against being charged with shooting a buck with sub-legal antlers. Suppose I shoot a 6-point that's heavy horned and without brow tines in an 8-point area. It's obviously not his first set of antlers. If I can prove by expert testimony that the buck is 3½, I'm off the hook. It means I've killed an older age class buck consistent with the goals of AR, and I've removed a buck without brow tines from the gene pool. Win-win for everybody.

I do wonder, however, if this rule were adopted, would it mean mandatory check stations?

Steve

[scottflesher]

ORIGINAL: charlie 01

One area I hunt is a army training facility. They have antler restictions of 4-pts or better, and a one buck limit per hunter. It seems to work well there, producing some quality bucks. But, I see a lot of small 8-pts taken that are nowhere near their potential. But, that is his or her trophy and they are happy and I should not judge. Probably their first or second buck, or just glad to shoot a buck. I shot my share of small bucks in the begining. I guess I'm just an old big buck hunter now and that,s the way I look at it. What I do see, is the quantity and quality of the bucks coming out of the states such as Ohio, Indiana, and Iowa that are at one buck only. Sure, Illinois, Wisconsin and other states produce big bucks, but the fore mentioned states are starting to climb in their trophy listings. That is why I'm for a one buck limit. I know some do not agree. I would rather have it this way instead of antler restrictions. 

Charlie, I agree with you. I made a comment in an earlier post that I'd like to withdrawl. I do not support being required to harvest a doe prior to harvesting a buck. That statement was more of me thinking outloud than it was me taking a stand or recommending a law.

I love to hunt, and on the years that I've been fortunate enough to harvest a buck early in bow season, it's been tough to let my bow hang while a decent buck walked under me. Sometimes being tagged out has it's drawbacks. But that's just the way it goes.
The problem I hear others saying when it comes to issues such as bag limit on bucks or APR, seems to stem around ME ME ME.
"I wouldn't want to be required to....."
These types of programs aren't put in place to benefit the hunters. Sure they may offer a derivative benefit after they're in place (such as swamplife points out) but they are ultimately there to help the health of the herd. Too many people put their own desires and passions over that of the deer herd. That's the common denominator that I see in these types of debates.

[Relentless]

First off, sorry Charlie but, you CAN kill two bucks in IA....not just one.
 
Secondly, I am the type of hunter that sits in a stand and give a deer a serious consideration before pulling a trigger or flinging an arrow.  With that being said another very legal way to hunt deer in many states is by "pushing" or "driving" tracts of timber.  So, when a deer is on the run through some brush or trees how in the world are you going to accurately determine the number of points?  Simple answer is that you can't but, this is the only way some people hunt, which is fine.  But, there will be and most likely have been times where bucks that don't meet criteria have been shot.  Now, the hunter has a choice to make...check it in and pay a fine, don't check it in to avoid the fine, or in the case of a "phone/internet" check in....they could simply lie about what they shot.  Now, after a few years of this the DNR will have skewed data and wonder why.
 
Same choices could be made if an age restriction were in place.  Is anyone going to take their deer to a biologist if they think it might not measure up?
 
I am not saying that I have the answer to the issues some states have....these are just my opinions.  And as far as Illinois goes, I have no complaints.

[Proline]

Naturally this is a very debateable topic, one that not everyone will ever agree as one voice on.  The only thing I can add is that I think it depends on where you live/hunt.   In Mass. we have drastically lower densities than other areas. In my zone (#10), we had the highest densities in the state and back a few years ago those densites were approx. 25 deer/sq mile. F&W's goal for Zone 10 is get this down to 8-10 deer/sq mile and I doubt they are far from it in some areas. They are doing this by 1. doe tags to everyone who wants one in high density zones, 2. They sell thousands of "extra doe tags" you can buy for $5 each the week before the season starts 3. They went from one buck tag to two on every license.  4. lengthened each season, archery, gun, and muzzleloader.  While the densities are down, the does still drastically outweigh the # of bucks.  The second buck tag needs to go because guys wack the first buck they see knowing they have another buck to use on Mr. Big. I have been hunting Mass. since 1996 and the biggest racked buck I have shot is probably low 120's.  I am lucky now if a see a buck per year.  Last year I saw one, a spike 9 weeks into the season and that was the only one I saw. I would love to see antler restrictions for a few years and see what it does. If not statewide, in certain Zones. I also love the design Ishman's area has where Jr. hunters can take what they want and older hunters hold off, I would just classify a Jr. hunter as someone under 20.
 
   

[Dan Salmon]

Here is a good article on deer genetics and mostly refutes the position for APR's with the exception of age variation within a herd.

http://qdmworks.wordpress.com/2010/10/12/why-we-cant-manage-deer-genetics/#comment-82

[Relentless]

GREAT article Dan, thanks for sharing!

[woodsalta]

In the photo corner thread of the forums, there is a picture of a beautiful 8 pointer that was hit by a truck and killed. The antlers are enormous and I had read that some states require that a deer have at least 4 points on each side to be concidered a "shooter". This is where the APR's get it wrong in my opinion.